Telamon vs Talamone

Mar 2016
23
Cocoa Beach, Florida
There's a town on the west coast of Italy, along the Tyrrhenian Sea, called Talamone. It's just a little place but I'm fascinated by it. For thing Sulla went medieval on it (~82BCE) during the Social War. He didn't like the fact that the people of Talamon supported Marius. He even tore down the temple there, and no one lived there for hundreds of years. I've wondered if it was really truly a wasteland for centuries. Any evidence you care to share?

There's also the myth that Talamone was founded by the Jason and the Argonauts in their search of the Golden Fleece. A key connect is a character in the story, Telamon. He's the guy who fought with Jason. I've read some papers that suggest that there's really no connection. I want to believe that Talamone was historically founded by the Argonauts. Any good evidence of this?

Does anyone have a definitive answer to either question?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,879
Portugal
There's a town on the west coast of Italy, along the Tyrrhenian Sea, called Talamone. It's just a little place but I'm fascinated by it. For thing Sulla went medieval on it (~82BCE) during the Social War. He didn't like the fact that the people of Talamon supported Marius. He even tore down the temple there, and no one lived there for hundreds of years. I've wondered if it was really truly a wasteland for centuries. Any evidence you care to share?

There's also the myth that Talamone was founded by the Jason and the Argonauts in their search of the Golden Fleece. A key connect is a character in the story, Telamon. He's the guy who fought with Jason. I've read some papers that suggest that there's really no connection. I want to believe that Talamone was historically founded by the Argonauts. Any good evidence of this?
That is quite interesting and I didn’t know it. As for evidences… we don’t even know in what history facts the Golden Fleece myth is based… so…

And it reminds me the myth that Lisbon was founded by Ulysses.

Does anyone have a definitive answer to either question?
If I learned something about history is that there are no definitive answers.

EDIT:

I have the message "403 - FORBIDDEN" in that page.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,738
USA
I have the message "403 - FORBIDDEN" in that page.
They have a funky security option, they block access from unknown IPs sometimes at random, I had to email them to get mine lifted. Here is the text:

South of Grosseto, the next place of Etruscan interest is Telamone, or Talamone, •eighteen miles distant. For the first half of the way the road traverses a wide plain, crossing the Ombrone by a ferry. This, the Umbro of antiquity — non ignobile flumen — is a stream of no great width, and ought to be spanned by a bridge. In Pliny's time it was navigable;1 but for what distance we know not. Passing Alberese and its quarries,2 the road enters a wooded valley, with a range of hills on the right renowned as a favourite haunt of the wild-boar and roebuck —

Ubi cerva silvicultrix, ubi aper nemorivagus.

Hither accordingly the cacciatori of Rome and Florence resort in the season, taking up their quarters at Collecchio, a way-side inn, twelve miles from Grosseto. Where this range sinks to the sea, a castle on a small headland, a few houses at its foot, and a vessel or two off the shore, mark the port of Telamone.

Telamone lies nearly two miles off the high road, and to reach it you have to skirt the sandy shores of the little bay, sprinkled with aloes, and fragments of Roman ruin. The place is squalid beyond description, almost in utter ruin, desolated in summer by malaria, and at no time containing more than some hundred and fifty befevered souls — febbricitanti, as the Italians say — on whose heads Heaven has rained

"The blistering drops of the Maremma's dew."
Inn there is none; and no traveller, who seeks more than mere shelter and a shake-down, should think of passing the night here, but should go forward to Orbetello, twelve miles to the south. Indeed, I know not why the antiquarian traveller should halt at Telamone, for the castle is only of the middle ages, and nothing within it is of higher antiquity; though the shores of its bay are covered, like those of Baiae, with abundant wrecks of Roman villas. No vestiges of Etruscan times could I perceive or hear of at Telamone, or in its immediate neighbourhood; although the place can lay claim to that remote antiquity. There are said to be Roman remains also on the tower-crested head land of Telamonaccio, which forms the eastern horn of the port, and which even disputes with Telamone the honour of being the site of the Etruscan town.

Telamone has retained its ancient name, which is said to be derived from Telamon, the Argonaut, who touched here on returning from the celebrated expedition to Colchis, prior to the Trojan war, and thirteen centuries before Christ. But such an origin is clearly fabulous. There is no doubt, however, of its high antiquity; but whether it was founded by the Tyrrhene-Pelasgi, who built many towns on this coast,6 or was simply of Etruscan origin, we have no means of determining.

There is no historical mention of Telamon in the times of Etruscan independence. We hear of it first in the year, when the Romans defeated, in this neighbourhood, an army of Cisalpine Gauls, who had made an irruption into Etruria.

It was at the port of Telamon that Marius landed on his return from Africa (87 B.C.), to retrieve his ruined fortunes. This is the last historical notice we have of it in ancient times; and except that it is mentioned in the catalogues of the geographers and in the Itineraries, we have no further record of its existence till the beginning of the fourteenth century.

Though we do not learn from ancient writers that Telamon was used as a port in Etruscan times, it is impossible to believe that the advantages of a harbour, sheltered from every wind save the south, and protected even in that quarter by the natural break-water of Monte Argentaro and its double isthmus, could have been overlooked or neglected by the most maritime nation of their time, the "sea-kings" of Italy. The recent discovery of an Etruscan city of great size in the neighbourhood, sufficiently establishes the fact, which is further confirmed by the evidence of its coins.

The bay is now so choked with sand and sea-weed, that even the small coasting craft, when laden, have much ado to enter; and in summer the stagnant pools along the shore send forth intolerable effluvia, generating deadly fevers, and poisoning the atmosphere for many miles around. What little commerce is now carried on, consists in the shipment of corn,º timber, and charcoal.

The road to Orbetello runs along the swampy shore, with low bare heights inland, once crowned by one of the proudest cities of Etruria, whose site had been forgotten for ages; and with the lofty headland of Monte Argentaro seaward, and the wooded peaks of the Giglio — Igilii silvosa cacumina — by its side; often concealed in a dense black line along this coast. The river Osa, the Ossa of antiquity, has to be crossed by a ferry, where large masses in the stream proclaim the wreck of the Roman bridge, by which the Via Aurelia was carried across. Four or five miles beyond, is the Albegna, anciently the Albinia, a much wider river, with a little fort on its left bank, marking the frontier of the Presidj, a small district on this coast, which belonged first to Spain, then to Naples, and was annexed to Tuscany at the Congress of Vienna. This stream is also crossed by a ferry. There is a saying — "When you meet with a bridge, pay it more respect than you would to a count" —

Quando vedi un ponte,
Fa gli più onor che non ad un conte —

and with good reason, for counts in Italy are plentiful as blackberries — you meet them at every turn; but bridges! — they are deserving of all reverence, albeit patronised by neither saint nor sovereign. Three rivers in a morning's drive along one of the best roads in Tuscany, and all still under the protection of St. Christopher, the first Christian ferryman! For the next five or six miles the road traverses pine-woods, and then branches off to Orbetello, which lies at the extremity of a long tongue of sand, stretching into its wide lagoon, and is overshadowed by the double-peaked mountain-mass of Argentaro.

Tenditur in medias mons Argentarius undas,
Ancipitique jugo caerula rura premit.
 
Mar 2016
23
Cocoa Beach, Florida
Thanks... this is good material. I'm checking out penelope.uchicago also.
 
Mar 2016
23
Cocoa Beach, Florida
Hi Tilius... I'm learning that there are "no definitive answers" also. I guess I keep digging because I'm sure someone knows. But 2,000 years buries a lot of facts and history.
 
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