That whole free will doesn't exist in the universe thing:

Oct 2015
1,165
California
#1
I'm still confused by this whole thing with the non-existence of free will as it relates to the Big Bang. One of the questions in physics that is particularly confusing to me is the absence of free-will in the universe:

If we believe in the Big Bang Theory – and the universe’s continuous expansion is a strong indication that such theory must be correct – the initial state of the universe was a single point (known as a singularity) that then expanded to the cosmos we know and perceive today, which, of course, includes us.

If so, there is a causal relationship between the Big Bang and us. In other words, free will is not allowed, and all of our actions are just a mere consequence of that first event. Such a view is known as “determinism”, or “super-determinism” (if one finds it productive to reinvent the wheel).

Does free will exist in the universe? (That would be a no.) | Cosmos


I guess my best take on this is the universe is so vast and constantly expanding, that if there are aliens in distant far away star systems and galaxies observing earth, some of them have already seen the earth's sun turn supernova and humans no longer exist, in which case everything we do, our choices and our actions have been predestined and free will doesn't exist. In some galaxies, they are only just observing dinosaurs still roaming the earth. That's how weird the physics of space and time is.
 
Likes: Steel of Fury
Mar 2019
1,623
Kansas
#2
I guess my best take on this is the universe is so vast and constantly expanding, that if there are aliens in distant far away star systems and galaxies observing earth, some of them have already seen the earth's sun turn supernova and humans no longer exist, in which case everything we do, our choices and our actions have been predestined and free will doesn't exist. In some galaxies, they are only just observing dinosaurs still roaming the earth. That's how weird the physics of space and time is.
I think you have this whole thing a little ass backwards.

Under no circumstances anywhere in the universe can you see into the future. We can however see into the past. This is not a function of weird physics of space time, it is simply a restriction caused by the speed of light.

To consider free will as a function of the universe requires an investment in a faith that there is an overriding intelligence.
 
Oct 2015
1,165
California
#3
I think you have this whole thing a little ass backwards.

Under no circumstances anywhere in the universe can you see into the future. We can however see into the past. This is not a function of weird physics of space time, it is simply a restriction caused by the speed of light.

To consider free will as a function of the universe requires an investment in a faith that there is an overriding intelligence.
I'm still confused as to how free-will doesn't exist in the universe.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,039
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#4
As the quoted text says, if you believe in a deterministic universe, then free will doesn't exist.

MG1962a has pointed out that one cannot see into the future, but into the past.

Now, determinism requires that the universe is governed by a fixed set of rules and equations. Given the current state of the universe, one can apply a mathematical function to determine a given future state.

However, that assumes that there is no random factor. At the quantum level, the universe is random. It can be quantified by statistical probabilities but any individual particle cannot be deterministically measured. Thus, a future state of the universe can only be described in terms of probabilities.

Quantum indeterminacy - Wikipedia
 
Likes: Theodoric
Jan 2016
1,151
Collapsed wave
#5
As the quoted text says, if you believe in a deterministic universe, then free will doesn't exist.

MG1962a has pointed out that one cannot see into the future, but into the past.

Now, determinism requires that the universe is governed by a fixed set of rules and equations. Given the current state of the universe, one can apply a mathematical function to determine a given future state.

However, that assumes that there is no random factor. At the quantum level, the universe is random. It can be quantified by statistical probabilities but any individual particle cannot be deterministically measured. Thus, a future state of the universe can only be described in terms of probabilities.

Quantum indeterminacy - Wikipedia

From that same article from the link:

Notice however, that the indeterminacy as stated above only applies to values of measurements not to the quantum state.
 
Oct 2013
6,417
Planet Nine, Oregon
#6
There is just too much about the universe we don't understand to make any assumptions about it--we don't really know how the universe began --or even if there was a Big Bang. As the article touches upon, the quantum fluctuations don't usually make it into the Newtonian scale of reality. Free will might be an illusion, especially when the mechanics of the mind are ironed out, but for our purposes we live that illusion.
 
Oct 2017
210
America 🇺🇸
#7
& I’d say, even if free will exists within a box with a limited even if large set of data, don’t you think it’s evident that we have a lot of independent & unique control even within our data & boxes to make us unique enough?

At least I hope to think that’s what makes me not an @$$H0L3 & a good guy :love: & why the people we truly love & care for are truly special to us.

As an animal lover I’d say that an example of what happens when people ignore or are ignorant of fundamental innate data & it’s boundaries of organisms is animal as well as human abuse.
 
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stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,423
Las Vegas, NV USA
#8
Quantum Mechanics doesn't seem to be compatible with strict determinism as it's usually understood. An alternative interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is that every quantum state exists and no one state is favored. This means all states exist at the same time rather than the state we observe being somehow real and the others not. This makes some long standing issues with the quantum wave "collapse" disappear because there is no collapse. The implication is that there are many words where each outcome is real. Therefore the cat that's killed by a machine activated by one quantum state will still be alive in the other quantum state. We only observe one outcome but both outcomes actually happen in different "worlds". It's not surprising this idea took a long time to be taken seriously but is now accepted as viable because it explains a lot of problems.

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia
 
Likes: Todd Feinman
Oct 2013
6,417
Planet Nine, Oregon
#9
Quantum Mechanics doesn't seem to be compatible with strict determinism as it's usually understood. An alternative interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is that every quantum state exists and no one state is favored. This means all states exist at the same time rather than the state we observe being somehow real and the others not. This makes some long standing issues with the quantum wave "collapse" disappear because there is no collapse. The implication is that there are many words where each each outcome is real. Therefore the cat that's killed by a machine activated by one quantum state will still be alive in the other quantum state. We only observe one outcome but both outcomes actually happen in different "worlds". It's not surprising this idea took a long time to be taken seriously but is accepted as as viable because it explains a lot of problems.

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia
Bizarre, but that idea is still current.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,039
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#10
Quantum Mechanics doesn't seem to be compatible with strict determinism as it's usually understood. An alternative interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is that every quantum state exists and no one state is favored. This means all states exist at the same time rather than the state we observe being somehow real and the others not. This makes some long standing issues with the quantum wave "collapse" disappear because there is no collapse. The implication is that there are many words where each outcome is real. Therefore the cat that's killed by a machine activated by one quantum state will still be alive in the other quantum state. We only observe one outcome but both outcomes actually happen in different "worlds". It's not surprising this idea took a long time to be taken seriously but is now accepted as viable because it explains a lot of problems.

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia
So you mean there's a state of reality where I'm not awesome? I pity tha' foo'.
 
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