That whole free will doesn't exist in the universe thing:

Sep 2013
432
France
I don't follow your logic with animals and history. If you mean history as field, sure they don't, because they're not intelligent. But a dog certainly has a past. Also don't understand how that's proof of the brain operating outside causality.
History is not just about "past". Wolves or pinguins of a given environment are organized the same way, throughout their "past". Humans do not, because they create bifurcations, unexcpected things, precisely because they have free will. That's why human's past is history, cow's past is not.
 
Feb 2019
477
Thrace
History is not just about "past". Wolves or pinguins of a given environment are organized the same way, throughout their "past". Humans do not, because they create bifurcations, unexcpected things, precisely because they have free will. That's why human's past is history, cow's past is not.
Just because they are more predictable doesn't mean animals can't do "unexpected' things. Human development is much more abrupt that of any other animal because we acquired reason, not because our brain operates outside causality.
 
Sep 2013
432
France
Difference of "reason" between humans and animals is just a matter of degrees.
Great apes and other animals (some birds...) have also some degrees of reason, judgment...
But without free-will, great apes do the same things for ages, and will do the same in the far future.
 
Feb 2019
477
Thrace
Difference of "reason" between humans and animals is just a matter of degrees.
Great apes and other animals (some birds...) have also some degrees of reason, judgment...
But without free-will, great apes do the same things for ages, and will do the same in the far future.
So when and how exactly do you think humans acquired free-will if it's different from reason, animals don't have it, and it's not an evolutionary product?
 
Jun 2016
1,863
England, 200 yards from Wales
IN the posts above (just gone through them quickly, not having seen this thread before) we seem to have causal determoinism, tempered by possibilities of randomness (quantum stuff etc).
Yet surely free will is supposed to be something other than either of those. If someone claims they made a free decision it is supposedly not caused (ie could not be other given the pre-existing causes) but surely isn't random either, could just as well have gone the other way. So what actually is this free will thing?
I have an uneasy feeling that it's just that the causation in a system as complex as a human brain is so convoluted that it is in practice unpredictable, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Or isn't it "I freely chose to make that decision" = I decided to make that decision, which doesn't much illuminate the nature of deciding.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SimSportPlyr
Feb 2019
477
Thrace
IN the posts above (just gone through them quickly, not having seen this thread before) we seem to have causal determoinism, tempered by possibilities of randomness (quantum stuff etc).
Yet surely free will is supposed to be something other than either of those. If someone claims they made a free decision it is supposedly not caused (ie could not be other given the pre-existing causes) but surely isn't random either, could just as well have gone the other way. So what actually is this free will thing?
I have an uneasy feeling that it's just that the causation in a system as complex as a human brain is so convoluted that it is in practice unpredictable, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Or isn't it "I freely chose to make that decision" = I decided to make that decision, which doesn't much illuminate the nature of deciding.
That's it.
 
Jun 2016
1,863
England, 200 yards from Wales
He uses words live 'voluntary', 'choice', deliberation', but it doesn't really address the sort of things questioned here, ie what is meant by those things.
Can you not explain your opinion in your own words?
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,968
Romania
He uses words live 'voluntary', 'choice', deliberation', but it doesn't really address the sort of things questioned here, ie what is meant by those things.
Can you not explain your opinion in your own words?
By "voluntary" is understood what is done willingly and by "involuntary" what is done unwillingly, by "choice" is understood the selection of one possibility in preference to the other(s) and by "deliberation" is understood the rational "weighting" of the possibilities (before making the choice).
 
Last edited:

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,968
Romania
Or isn't it "I freely chose to make that decision" = I decided to make that decision, which doesn't much illuminate the nature of deciding.
If it was in your power to make or not that decision, then you were free to make or not that decision because you are free in relation to whatever is in your power to do or not to do (i.e. in relation to all the possibilities that can be actualized depending on your willing agency).
 
Last edited: