The AEF defeats the Bolsheviks

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,644
Sydney
the AEF were not there to fight the Bolsheviks as such ,

the British in Murmansk and the US in Vladivostok were there to recover some of the mountains of supplies shipped to Russia to continue the war
the intervention was very unpopular with the folks back home ,
it was seen as some prolongation of a war everybody fervently wanted to finish , it also was a cost the French and British treasury were keen to avoid
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
The question then is: what White Russians? The Whites were only a loose coallition united by their opposition to the Reds with some warlords just doing their own thing. Those differing ideologies were bound to clash at some point.
I thought that the Whites were more unified in 1919 and only became fragmented in 1920?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
With no Lenin and Stalin and his lackeys things would have been better off for the Cossacks, Kulaks, and other folks that they would have deported or liquidated.
Yes, certainly, considering that a White Russian regime probably wouldn't be into mass murder like the Bolsheviks were. That said, though, if a White Russia descends into warlordism before 1941, things could get really, really crappy for Russia once uncle Adolf's fist hits their door. :(

Worse for the Jews though.
Initially, Yes, but if White Russia is able to remain intact and to recover its strength, it would probably be much more likely to be capable of forming a successful anti-Nazi alliance with Britain and France than the Soviet Union was in real life. After all, a White Russia wouldn't have dreams of world Communist revolution like the Bolsheviks had. Of course, if White Russia descends into warlordism before 1939, well, things are likely to get extremely crappy for it if/after Hitler is still able to defeat France.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kubis Gabcik

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
So the OP is asking 'What would the 20th century be like without Communism or at least without Russian Communism?' I will assume the Russian Civil War is won by a Karensky-style democrat but it does not take. Within ten years Russian democracy falls to some kind of authoritarian regime, probably some kind of dictatorship.
Yes, very likely considering that, by 1938, all Central European, Southern European, and Eastern European countries other than Czechoslovakia became dictatorships in real life:



The odds of Russia being an exception to this trend would probably be pretty low.

After that, the 20th century unfolds pretty much the same as it did. Germany and Russia will never be allies. They have too many competing interests. Hitler still wants his living space in the east so he invades Russia. Russia, the US, and Britain still combine to defeat Germany.
A White Russia could be much more successful at forming an anti-Nazi alliance with Britain and France in 1938-1939 than the Bolsheviks were, though. If so, this could very well mean no Fall of France in 1940 and thus a relatively quick end to WWII. This would also mean either no or a much smaller Holocaust.

After the war there is a protracted rivalry between the US and Russia. Without a doctrine or philosophy of Communism the Russians might not try to dominate the world with like-minded countries, but I don't think they would try to live peacefully with the democratic-capitalists either. The European empires would still break up after WW2, but the independence movements would probably not be Communist. They might be supported by the Russians. The bi-polar Cold War might return to a multi-polar model earlier than 1990.
It would be interesting if Russia decided to expand even further after a quick victory over Germany in an alt-WWII in this scenario. For instance, south towards the Persian Gulf and/or Indian Ocean. Or perhaps into China.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
@Maki: If a broad Anglo-Franco-Russian anti-Nazi alliance is formed in either 1938 or 1939, then the situation for European Jewry is going to be much, much better than in real life since the Nazis are likely to get defeated much more quickly and are also highly unlikely to have as many Jews under their control as they had in real life--which means less Jews for the Nazis to mass murder.
 
Jan 2019
215
Finland
Yes, very likely considering that, by 1938, all Central European, Southern European, and Eastern European countries other than Czechoslovakia became dictatorships in real life:



The odds of Russia being an exception to this trend would probably be pretty low.
European politics in the 20s, 30s would be massively different and possibly not have this trend without the USSR and the reactions to it. Much of the authoritarianism in Europe in the inter-war period was anti-communist in nature and the lack of faith in democratic institutions to be able to withstand being undermined by communists. Political movements that positioned themselves as a third way between capitalism and communism, like fascism and national socialism, might have been far less prominent, or definitely would have been I'd say.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
European politics in the 20s, 30s would be massively different and possibly not have this trend without the USSR and the reactions to it. Much of the authoritarianism in Europe in the inter-war period was anti-communist in nature and the lack of faith in democratic institutions to be able to withstand being undermined by communists. Political movements that positioned themselves as a third way between capitalism and communism, like fascism and national socialism, might have been far less prominent, or definitely would have been I'd say.
Please keep in mind, though, that a lot of the dictatorships in Europe during this time were probably neither Fascist nor Nazi. Rather, they were conventional right-wing authoritarian regimes. Also, your point about the fear of Communism might very well be accurate, but there could also be another factor here: Specifically the inability of democratic politicians to establish good, effective governance. Indeed, this could provide just as much of an opportunity for right-wing authoritarian forces to seize power in various European countries even in this scenario.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
Even countries that were allies of democratic France often couldn't escape the dictatorial trend in Europe during this time in real life--Czechoslovakia did manage to escape this trend, but Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia didn't.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
Yes, certainly, considering that a White Russian regime probably wouldn't be into mass murder like the Bolsheviks were.
I would not be so sure., There were plenty of brutal and murderous characters in teh various White Armies, and they committed plnety of massacres., and often imposed very brutal regimes. Given control of all of Russia it would almost certainly have been a brutal regime that forced teh peasants back to defectively toital serfdom, which would have required terror.



"After Kornilov was killed in April 1918, the leadership of the Volunteer Army passed to Anton Denikin. During the Denikin regime, the press regularly urged violence against Jews. For example, a proclamation by one of Denikin's generals incited people to "arm themselves" in order to extirpate "the evil force which lives in the hearts of Jew-communists." In the small town of Fastov alone, Denikin's Volunteer Army murdered over 1,500 Jews, mostly the elderly, women, and children. An estimated 100,000 to 150,000 Jews in Ukraine and southern Russia were killed in pogroms perpetrated by Denikin's forces as well as Petlyura's nationalist-separatists.[8] Hundreds of thousands of Jews were left homeless and tens of thousands became victims of serious illness.[9]

In the Don Province, the Soviet government was displaced by a regime headed by Pyotr Krasnov formed in April 1918. According to Walter Laqueur, more than 45,000 people were shot or hanged by Krasnov's White Cossack regime, which lasted until the Red Army conquered the region following their victory at Tsaritsyn.

Mass executions occurred in 1918 in territories under White occupation. In one incident, commander of the 3rd Division of the Volunteer Army, M. Drozdovsky, gave an order to shoot more than 1,000 captured prisoners"

"In 1918 when the Whites controlled the Northern Territory with a population of about 400,000 people, more than 38,000 were sent to prisons. Of those, about 8,000 were executed while thousands more died from torture and disease.["

"In March 1919 Admiral Kolchak himself demanded one of his generals to "follow the example of the Japanese who, in the Amur region, had exterminated the local population".[6] Kolchak's regime also used mass floggings,[12] especially with rods.[13] Kolchak issued orders to raze to the ground whole villages.[13] In a few Siberian provinces, 20,000 farms were destroyed and over 10,000 peasant houses burned down"

"In the Urals, Siberia, and the Far East, extraordinary cruelty was practiced by several Cossack warlords: B. Annenkov, A. Dutov, G. Semyonov, and I. Kalmykov. During the trial against Annenkov, there was testimony about the robbing peasants and atrocities under the slogan: “We have no restrictions! God is with us and Ataman Annenkov: slash right and left!”.[14] In September 1918, during the suppression of peasant uprisings in Slavgorod county, Annenkov tortured and killed up to 500 people. The village of Black Dole was burned down, after which peasants were shot, tortured, and hanged on pillars, including the wives and children of the peasants. Girls of Slavgorod and surrounding areas were brought to Annenkov's train, raped, and then shot. According to an eyewitness, Annenkov behaved with brutal torture: victims had their eyes gouged and tongues and strips of their back cut off, were buried alive, or tied to horses. In Semipalatinsk, Annenkov threatened to shoot every fifth resident if the city refused to pay indemnities."

"On May 9, 1918, after Ataman Dutov captured Alekasandrov-Gai village, nearly 2,000 men of the Red Army were buried alive. More than 700 people of the village were executed. After capturing Troitsk, Orenburg, and other cities, a regime of terror was installed. One prison in Orenburg contained over 6,000 people, of whom 500 were killed just during interrogations. In Chelyabinsk, Dutov's men executed or deported to Siberian prisons over 9,000 people. In Troitsk, Dutov's men in the first weeks after the capture of the city shot about 700 people. In Ileka they killed over 400. These mass executions were typical of Dutov's Cossack troops."

"The Semenov regime in Transbaikalia was characterized by mass terror and executions. At the Adrianovki station in summer of 1919, more than 1,600 people were shot. Semenov himself admitted in court that his troops burned villages. Eleven permanent death houses were set up, where refined forms of torture were practiced.[17] Semyonov personally supervised the torture chambers, during which some 6,500 people were murder"

 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,961
Republika Srpska
@Maki: If a broad Anglo-Franco-Russian anti-Nazi alliance is formed in either 1938 or 1939, then the situation for European Jewry is going to be much, much better than in real life since the Nazis are likely to get defeated much more quickly and are also highly unlikely to have as many Jews under their control as they had in real life--which means less Jews for the Nazis to mass murder.
Okay, but it is not impossible that this new White Russia would have deported its Jewish population.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist