The AEF defeats the Bolsheviks

May 2018
1,021
Michigan
Nobody in Europe is innocent when it comes to treatment of the Jews. Even Great Britain (who had their own issues with Catholics) and liberated them under Wellington still opposed the same rights for Jews (as did Wellesley himself at the time). Some countries (like Germany) are clearly more egregious than others, but remember France still suffered the Dreyfuss Affair.

It is not unfair to say that a Russia who isn't an international pariah to the west would be more receptive to western values and alliances. This could have a great impact in Asia, as a Western-friendly Russia would be a great blunt object to use against the ambitions of Japan.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
Okay, but it is not impossible that this new White Russia would have deported its Jewish population.
To where? To Siberia and/or Central Asia? Even so, this would probably be a fate superior to the Holocaust for many of them. Out of the Russian/Soviet Jews that ended up under Nazi rule in real life, almost all of them perished. In this scenario, maybe something like half of them or even more would survive. Plus, the decimation of Polish Jewry is likely to be much less total if the Allies (which include Russia in this scenario) manage to quickly expel Nazi Germany from Poland.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
Nobody in Europe is innocent when it comes to treatment of the Jews. Even Great Britain (who had their own issues with Catholics) and liberated them under Wellington still opposed the same rights for Jews (as did Wellesley himself at the time). Some countries (like Germany) are clearly more egregious than others, but remember France still suffered the Dreyfuss Affair.

It is not unfair to say that a Russia who isn't an international pariah to the west would be more receptive to western values and alliances. This could have a great impact in Asia, as a Western-friendly Russia would be a great blunt object to use against the ambitions of Japan.
In spite of the Dreyfus Affair, life for Jews in France was probably relatively tolerable. Ditto for Jews in Britain and even Jews in Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary. During this time, Tsarist Russia was the big bad outcast in regards to this with the pogroms and Pale of Settlement and all of that.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
@Maki: Please keep in mind that deporting the entirety of the Soviet Jewish population to Siberia and/or Central Asia in 1940-1941 would have probably literally been one of the best things that Stalin could have done for Soviet Jewry considering that this would have very likely meant a much higher percentage of surviving Soviet Jews--especially out of the Soviet Jews in the far western provinces of the Soviet Union. In fact, the relatively few Soviet Jews who were, in fact, deported from the Soviet Union's western territories to Siberia and/or Central Asia in real life between 1939 and 1941 actually fared much better than the Soviet Jews who ended up under Nazi rule after Operation Barbarossa.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
I would not be so sure., There were plenty of brutal and murderous characters in teh various White Armies, and they committed plnety of massacres., and often imposed very brutal regimes. Given control of all of Russia it would almost certainly have been a brutal regime that forced teh peasants back to defectively toital serfdom, which would have required terror.
An agrarian and rural Russia would be a much weaker opponent for Germany, though. Would the White Russians really want that? After all, one can be a conservative traditionalist and still support industrialization.

"After Kornilov was killed in April 1918, the leadership of the Volunteer Army passed to Anton Denikin. During the Denikin regime, the press regularly urged violence against Jews. For example, a proclamation by one of Denikin's generals incited people to "arm themselves" in order to extirpate "the evil force which lives in the hearts of Jew-communists." In the small town of Fastov alone, Denikin's Volunteer Army murdered over 1,500 Jews, mostly the elderly, women, and children. An estimated 100,000 to 150,000 Jews in Ukraine and southern Russia were killed in pogroms perpetrated by Denikin's forces as well as Petlyura's nationalist-separatists.[8] Hundreds of thousands of Jews were left homeless and tens of thousands became victims of serious illness.[9]
Yes, there were certainly powerful anti-Semitic elements among both White Russians and Ukrainian nationalists. Unfortunately, this is unsurprising given the prominent participation of some Jews in left-wing revolutionary movements in Russia and elsewhere during this time. :(

In the Don Province, the Soviet government was displaced by a regime headed by Pyotr Krasnov formed in April 1918. According to Walter Laqueur, more than 45,000 people were shot or hanged by Krasnov's White Cossack regime, which lasted until the Red Army conquered the region following their victory at Tsaritsyn.
What were their offenses?

Mass executions occurred in 1918 in territories under White occupation. In one incident, commander of the 3rd Division of the Volunteer Army, M. Drozdovsky, gave an order to shoot more than 1,000 captured prisoners"
So, not much different from the Northern Alliance massacring a couple thousand Taliban prisoners in 2001 :(:


"In 1918 when the Whites controlled the Northern Territory with a population of about 400,000 people, more than 38,000 were sent to prisons. Of those, about 8,000 were executed while thousands more died from torture and disease.["
I'm presuming that those who got this treatment were perceived as being Bolshevik subversives, correct?

"In March 1919 Admiral Kolchak himself demanded one of his generals to "follow the example of the Japanese who, in the Amur region, had exterminated the local population".[6] Kolchak's regime also used mass floggings,[12] especially with rods.[13] Kolchak issued orders to raze to the ground whole villages.[13] In a few Siberian provinces, 20,000 farms were destroyed and over 10,000 peasant houses burned down"
Could this brutality have been due to a belief that the locals are pro-Bolshevik?

"In the Urals, Siberia, and the Far East, extraordinary cruelty was practiced by several Cossack warlords: B. Annenkov, A. Dutov, G. Semyonov, and I. Kalmykov. During the trial against Annenkov, there was testimony about the robbing peasants and atrocities under the slogan: “We have no restrictions! God is with us and Ataman Annenkov: slash right and left!”.[14] In September 1918, during the suppression of peasant uprisings in Slavgorod county, Annenkov tortured and killed up to 500 people. The village of Black Dole was burned down, after which peasants were shot, tortured, and hanged on pillars, including the wives and children of the peasants. Girls of Slavgorod and surrounding areas were brought to Annenkov's train, raped, and then shot. According to an eyewitness, Annenkov behaved with brutal torture: victims had their eyes gouged and tongues and strips of their back cut off, were buried alive, or tied to horses. In Semipalatinsk, Annenkov threatened to shoot every fifth resident if the city refused to pay indemnities."

"On May 9, 1918, after Ataman Dutov captured Alekasandrov-Gai village, nearly 2,000 men of the Red Army were buried alive. More than 700 people of the village were executed. After capturing Troitsk, Orenburg, and other cities, a regime of terror was installed. One prison in Orenburg contained over 6,000 people, of whom 500 were killed just during interrogations. In Chelyabinsk, Dutov's men executed or deported to Siberian prisons over 9,000 people. In Troitsk, Dutov's men in the first weeks after the capture of the city shot about 700 people. In Ileka they killed over 400. These mass executions were typical of Dutov's Cossack troops."

"The Semenov regime in Transbaikalia was characterized by mass terror and executions. At the Adrianovki station in summer of 1919, more than 1,600 people were shot. Semenov himself admitted in court that his troops burned villages. Eleven permanent death houses were set up, where refined forms of torture were practiced.[17] Semyonov personally supervised the torture chambers, during which some 6,500 people were murder"

So, basically, the Russian Whites were extremely brutal and cruel to those whom they believed were pro-Bolshevik and/or anti-White. That said, though, did they actually believe that most of the Russian peasantry was pro-Bolshevik and/or anti-White?
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
So, basically, the Russian Whites were extremely brutal and cruel to those whom they believed were pro-Bolshevik and/or anti-White. That said, though, did they actually believe that most of the Russian peasantry was pro-Bolshevik and/or anti-White?
The Bolshevik platform was land and peace. There was th epromise of land reform, the Whites were mostly reactionaries who wanted to turn back the clock on Russian rural society, The Peasants with or wiothot Bolshevik help were siezing the estates, dividing up land, and the Whites were detemrined to undo this. The Peasants were pro Bolshevik and anti white. To restore the landed estates of Nobility and social order teh existing before the revolution. The White regime had nothing to offer the vast majoirty of the Russian peasanstry and their rgeime could only be maintained by brutal terrorism.
 
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May 2018
1,021
Michigan
In spite of the Dreyfus Affair, life for Jews in France was probably relatively tolerable. Ditto for Jews in Britain and even Jews in Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary. During this time, Tsarist Russia was the big bad outcast in regards to this with the pogroms and Pale of Settlement and all of that.
I can agree there. Many Jews fled to the Kaiser away from the Tsar!
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,547
SoCal
The Bolshevik platform was land and peace. There was th epromise of land reform, the Whites were mostly reactionaries who wanted to turn back the clock on Russian rural society, The Peasants with or wiothot Bolshevik help were siezing the estates, dividing up land, and the Whites were detemrined to undo this. The Peasants were pro Bolshevik and anti white. To restore the landed estates of Nobility and social order teh existing before the revolution. The White regime had nothing to offer the vast majoirty of the Russian peasanstry and their rgeime could only be maintained by brutal terrorism.
AFAIK, the Russian peasants generally supported the Socialist Revolutionaries rather than the Bolsheviks. However, I would probably agree with you that if they were actually forced to choose between the Reds and the Whites, they would choose the Reds since at least the Reds actually have something to offer them (as you said, land reform, bread, and peace).

I do wonder if wiser heads could have prevailed had the Russian Whites won the civil war there and thus sought some kind of modus vivendi with the Russian peasantry. Given the information that you wrote about the Russian Whites and their brutality, though, this probably does unfortunately seem unlikely. :(

I do have a question, though--didn't Imperial Russian Prime Minister Pyotr Stolypin aim to give Russian peasants their own plot of land in an attempt to satisfy them as well as to provide increased prosperity to them?
 
May 2018
1,021
Michigan
AFAIK, the Russian peasants generally supported the Socialist Revolutionaries rather than the Bolsheviks. However, I would probably agree with you that if they were actually forced to choose between the Reds and the Whites, they would choose the Reds since at least the Reds actually have something to offer them (as you said, land reform, bread, and peace).

I do wonder if wiser heads could have prevailed had the Russian Whites won the civil war there and thus sought some kind of modus vivendi with the Russian peasantry. Given the information that you wrote about the Russian Whites and their brutality, though, this probably does unfortunately seem unlikely. :(

I do have a question, though--didn't Imperial Russian Prime Minister Pyotr Stolypin aim to give Russian peasants their own plot of land in an attempt to satisfy them as well as to provide increased prosperity to them?
If the White regime could only be held up by brutal terrorism...because the Bolshevik's totally held power by holding truly free and fair elections, never committed massive amounts of murder or political repression etc...

Certainly, "peace for the soldier, bread for the worker land for the peasant" held more appeal than a return to Tsardom. I don't know how much terrorism would be required to hold up a White regime, but the Red regime certainly made liberal use of terror.