The AEF defeats the Bolsheviks

Futurist

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May 2014
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If the White regime could only be held up by brutal terrorism...because the Bolshevik's totally held power by holding truly free and fair elections, never committed massive amounts of murder or political repression etc...
Oh, sure, if the Bolsheviks could be oppressive as Hell (and they certainly could be), so could the Russian Whites.

Certainly, "peace for the soldier, bread for the worker land for the peasant" held more appeal than a return to Tsardom. I don't know how much terrorism would be required to hold up a White regime, but the Red regime certainly made liberal use of terror.
TBH, I'm actually unsure that the Russian Whites would have restored the Russian monarchy had they won the RCW. After all, this might result in their regime becoming even more unpopular--even if a different Romanov is chosen as the Russian monarch. As for terror, right-wing regimes such as Hitler's were certainly likewise capable of making heavy use of terror.
 
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pugsville

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Oct 2010
9,970
If the White regime could only be held up by brutal terrorism...because the Bolshevik's totally held power by holding truly free and fair elections, never committed massive amounts of murder or political repression etc...

Certainly, "peace for the soldier, bread for the worker land for the peasant" held more appeal than a return to Tsardom. I don't know how much terrorism would be required to hold up a White regime, but the Red regime certainly made liberal use of terror.
But at the local level, there has been some land seizure and redistrubution favour the avrage pesants against teh larger estates. This creates a lareg numberof peasants with vested interest in maintaining the reviolution and a very small number of disenfranchised land owners who have a vested interest in over throwning the revolution. The Reds have only to terrorist a raloity small number of readily identifiable white suppoprters (a few well off people who will generally leave) the Whites have to terrosise a lareg number of people who the few commited Reds amongts the wider population don't nesscarilt stand out while havingto recliam the estates to satisfy their core supporter base, alienating most of the peasantry. The Bolsheviks just have to maanpipulate the process thaty during this process they accure more power than other revolutionary factions.

The Civil War won, the Bolsheviks with a monoply of pwoer and reaonable lareg and well organised army then the Bolsheviks could tsrat reshaping society to their views with liberal use of terror and brutallity,
 
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Maki

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Jan 2017
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It is not unfair to say that a Russia who isn't an international pariah to the west would be more receptive to western values and alliances. This could have a great impact in Asia, as a Western-friendly Russia would be a great blunt object to use against the ambitions of Japan.
I don't think we can 100% say Russia wouldn't have become an international pariah in the case of White victory. Russia was perceived as an "other" long before the Bolsheviks.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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I don't think we can 100% say Russia wouldn't have become an international pariah in the case of White victory. Russia was perceived as an "other" long before the Bolsheviks.
True, but the Western Allies (Britain and France) needed Russia's help against Germany, no?
 

Maki

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Jan 2017
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True, but the Western Allies (Britain and France) needed Russia's help against Germany, no?
They did. The Russian Empire was accepted as a part of the so-called Concert of Europe, but the Western powers were always suspicious of Russia. They believed Russia was a hungry octopus seeking to devour everything around (Russia was often depicted in that way). Britain and France fought Russia in the Crimean War and one of the biggest points of Germany's WW1 propaganda regarding the East was that the Russians were an Asiatic barbaric horde, similar to how Hitler would portray the Russians. And this was all before Bolshevism.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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They did. The Russian Empire was accepted as a part of the so-called Concert of Europe, but the Western powers were always suspicious of Russia. They believed Russia was a hungry octopus seeking to devour everything around (Russia was often depicted in that way). Britain and France fought Russia in the Crimean War and one of the biggest points of Germany's WW1 propaganda regarding the East was that the Russians were an Asiatic barbaric horde, similar to how Hitler would portray the Russians. And this was all before Bolshevism.
OK--the Anglo-French might have disliked Russia (for numerous reasons). However, couldn't they have simply continued to swallow their dislike of Russia just like they did in the couple of decades before WWI? After all, as real life showed, Britain and France had significant trouble permanently keeping Germany down without Russia's help in the post-WWI years.
 

Maki

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Jan 2017
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OK--the Anglo-French might have disliked Russia (for numerous reasons). However, couldn't they have simply continued to swallow their dislike of Russia just like they did in the couple of decades before WWI? After all, as real life showed, Britain and France had significant trouble permanently keeping Germany down without Russia's help in the post-WWI years.
Sure, but let's say the Allies beat Germany. One enemy down...old prejudices might have flared up. Just like after the defeat of Napoleon Britain and Russia became rivals. That being said, I think Britain would have been much more concerned about Russia than France. France and Russia had been allies for decades by the 1910s.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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Sure, but let's say the Allies beat Germany. One enemy down...old prejudices might have flared up. Just like after the defeat of Napoleon Britain and Russia became rivals. That being said, I think Britain would have been much more concerned about Russia than France. France and Russia had been allies for decades by the 1910s.
Yes, old prejudices might have flared up--but they could have also been suppressed if Germany and/or another common threat would have tried to rise again. Think of how the Coalition quickly reunited after Napoleon returned from Elba in 1815 even though they were previously on the verge of war with each other.

As for Britain, agreed due to the fact that Britain and Russia had a long history of the Great Game whereas Russia's imperial ambitions didn't really threaten French interests in a serious way. (AFAIK, France didn't really have to go to war against Russia even during the Crimean War; rather, it might have been something that Napoleon III did for reasons of glory.)