The Alamo - 6 March 1836

Sep 2010
558
why do these threads always end up about slavery? there are far worse issues in the world than that. take the treatment of the Indians in this country or the whole colonialism era when whole countries were raped.
no this thread was about the Alamo and how about we stick to it?
anyway you want to cut it the men in the Alamo were willing to die in the name of liberty. no amount of debunking garbage books will change that fact. did Travis draw a line in the sand, did Crockett surrender and then was executed, or did Bowie kill two Mexicans with his bowie knife from his deathbed? does it really matter? no one can prove one way or the other but what can be proven is each was willing to die for a cause.
as for the movie I thought it was great there are some of the great movie lines of all time in that movie.
 
Apr 2013
1,041
St. Augustine
When having a comprehensive discussion of the Texas revolt against Mexico the issue of slavery is hard to avoid; it was an important issue, the most important issue facing Americans between the War of 1812 and the War of the Rebellion.

Even if you confine a discussion to the Alamo alone slavery pops up.
 
Apr 2014
2
marlton nj
I am not condoning slavery. It was evil and wrong. But when you are using it as a "cause" you have to remember one thing...slavery was a common and accepted practice in this time. Having a "slave" was as common as owning a horse or having a house. Those that could afford one, had one. In 1836 slaves were being brought in by the thousands and openly sold in market in New Orleans, only a few hundred miles from Texas. I doubt very much that any of the Alamo defenders really gave a thought about how they were fighting, and about to die, to preserve the right to own a slave. I believe that the defenders were in San Antonio to get ready for a fight and all of a sudden a mexican army appeared and they were trapped. They were expecting Santa Anna to come maybe several months from when he appeared. Then they hoped and were led to believe that Fannin was coming, and other would come to help them...and they were obviously wrong. But to claim that they fought to preserve slavery is ridiculous.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,740
San Antonio, Tx
I know the film suffered from an early rotation of directors.
Overall, I liked the film. It focused more on the lives of the men and not so much on
the battle & it didn't go overboard in attempting to be a message movie or loaded with fluffy patriotism or racism.​
The battle lasted all of 15 minutes or less.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,740
San Antonio, Tx
When I was reading the thread, I, supposely like Corto, thought as well that here is a lot of gushing praise. I would like to know, how the Texas revolution is teached in the US or especially in Texas itself. As far as I know did the mexican Republic grant settlers from the USA to settle within the borders of Mexico and even granted special rights to these settlers. When the number of immigrants became too big, further immigration was abolished and e.g. the right of free taxes collected. A further main point for further struggle was, that mexico prohibited the slavery. so the Texas revolution is an uprise of a slavery-supporting immigrants against the legitimate government of mexico. I suppose, that is not what you get tought, isn't it?
Slavery was generally profitable in moist and wet East Texas and not so much in the rest of Texas. Southern planters were interested in East Texas lands. The problem for Mexico and for the Spaniards before them, was that very few Mexicans were interested in settling in Texas. The Comanche were potent, marauding natives who were quite successful in fending off settlers. They roamed far south and deeply into Mexico. The Mexican government wanted the Americans to settle the land and to serve as buffers between themselves the Comanche and Apaches. This was only partially successful.

Texas, at the time of the Texas Revolution was mostly empty. I doubt there were more than 40-50,000 people in the whole area of Texas at the time, which, if you understand the geography of the place, was like a drop n the ocean.

San Antonio, where the Alamo is located in the heart of downtown, was the only real city in Texas at the same. The remaining settlements were just tiny by comparison. San Antonio is where six outstanding Spanish Colonial Missions are located. Some of these missions were originally located on the banks of the Mississippi to keep the French out, but they were difficult to sustain and eventually pulled back to San Antonio.

The Mexican government turned the other cheek towards settlers who brought slaves with them, and turned the other cheek when it came to the settlers' de facto refusal to convert to Catholicism. Culturally, the American settlers were not on the same page as either the Spanish or the Mexicans and eventually this fact made the Mexicans nervous. They had reason to be.

Some of the fighters at the Alamo were fairly unsavory free-booters and filibusters looking for adventure, land and war. Crockett and his bunch could be counted in this group. The rest were more normal settlers who brought their wives and children into the compound with them. There were a few slaves as well.

Even if the small garrison at the Alamo had been reinforced by armed settlers from Goliad, they would stlll have been outnumbered 7 or 8 to 1 by Santa Anna's regular army. Unfortunately, nearly everyone from Goliad was executed on Santa Anna's orders, so no help was forthcoming from that quarter.

In the early days of the 13-day siege, the occupants may possibly have escaped as riders did come and go from the Alamo. Eventually, the noose tightened, however.

It seems pretty clear now that Crockett and a number of others survived the battle, surrendered and were executed in the compound after the battle, over the strenuous objections of some of Santa Anna's officers.

I have read and heard it repeated often, that the actual Anglo-Texan settlers were supposedly fighting for the restoration of the 1824 Mexican Constitution and that a Mexican flag with the date "1824" painted on it, flew over the Alamo. This has never been definitively confirmed. I've not seen this flag but know that the Mexican government has the flag of the New Orleans Greys (volunteers) which also flew over the Alamo.

The Alamo is the Founding Myth of Texas history. It has all the characteristics of a semi-high drama: interesting characters either seeking something or fleeing from something, good and profane people, women, children and slaves, vastly outnumbered by a growing army led by a pretty ruthless general who fancied himself the Napoleon of the West. Even though the final storming of the Alamo lasted about a quarter of an hour, all the men except for the slaves, women and children were killed, but more people were killed at Goliad than at the Alamo, however. The Goliad fiasco and massacre - again over the strenuous objections of Santa Anna;s senior staff - was equally as important at the time and in the minds of Texans.

In an era long before accurate and definitive maps, Texas comprised a huge "notional" area to include Colorado, part of Kansas and areas further west in New Mexico. The US government refused to seize Texas at the time because it had a treaty with Mexico. Following Texas' independence from Mexico, it was another ball game entirely, but still the US hesitated in part because by then the issue became the expansion of slavery and there were members of Congress who vehemently opposed the addition of another slave state. The other reasons had to do with the fact that Texas didn't really meet the criteria for statehood in term of population, known and fixed borders and continual war with the natives. Plus, Texas was completely bankrupt.
 
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royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,740
San Antonio, Tx
A hundred and eighty were challenged by Travis to die
By a line that he drew with his sword as the battle drew nigh
A man that crossed over the line was for glory
And he that was left better fly
And over the line crossed 179
It's cute, but no one really knows if this actually happened.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,740
San Antonio, Tx
^ You hit on a solid bolt of truth:the time in delaying Santa Anna and his men did indeed
buy General Houston and his army, time to drill, condense and plan, albeit with the
Runaway Scrape in mind.
-Houston knew better than the soldiers under his command who
wanted to go and attack the Mexican Army head on, he knew they were not ready.
-The Texan's burning fire embers for revenge after the Alamo and Goliad was hard to suppress, but Houston knew the Texians
were not ready and if so committed, they would have been slaughtered.
-In forcing Santa Anna to chase him deeper into East Texas, and towards the US, Houston knew he was,
much like French Marshal de Saxe advocated, of dictating to the enemy
the time and place of battle, so too would he stretch out Mexican supply lines.
-And much like the invisible hand in the Book of Daniel writing on the wall, Lady Fate favored the Texians in
this contest when Santa Anna blundered into a campsite with
only one way in and one way out. Houston finally had his spot and on 21 April 1836,
things were settled in about eighteen minutes.
Maybe. At the time, everyone wanted Travis to leave the Alamo. They weren't thinking about buying time. That may have been a salutary effect of staying but it wasn't the purpose. I don't know what Travis' reasons were except that he was expecting reinforcements from Goliad which never arrived. Travis himself had a rather spotty record with some shady episodes that may have accounted for why he was in Texas in the first place.

No one at the time had any idea about San Jacinto or that Sam Houston finally attacked Santa Anna during his siesta basically because his army threatened to mutiny if he didn't do something. That battle, too, only lasted about 15 minutes. Sic semper Napoleonus...
 
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royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,740
San Antonio, Tx
Here is a nice Alamo thread. TJ has some really nice pics and diagrams in the first two lines of this thread. There used to be more but some of the links got canceled. Anyway, what would the TX contingent do without an annual review of the Alamo?



:)

Let's be clear: that flag never flew over the Alamo at the time, and the battle took place at night.