The Battle of Ain Jalut, 1260

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,248
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Especially when there are threads like Napoleons cloth,civil war bullshits,blackwashing etc..
I've had just about enough of your rudeness and flame baiting. One more post like that, and you will be out of here.
 

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,688
And people still talk in this **** threat ''Police Duty to Rescue,lol.
Why not add something constructive to the discussion- this battle has been talked about in multiple threads over many years, not sure what new sources or ideas are out there but try talking about that then just complaining no one is responding to a 5-year-old thread you have added nothing to.
 
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Reactions: bboomer
May 2018
113
Bordeaux
Why not add something constructive to the discussion- this battle has been talked about in multiple threads over many years, not sure what new sources or ideas are out there but try talking about that then just complaining no one is responding to a 5-year-old thread you have added nothing to.
''İn Ain Jalut Mamluk army mostly consisted of Khwarazmian Turks,rest was Bahri Mamluk(Similar with Battle of La Forbie)''
 
Oct 2018
1,538
Sydney
What was the worst Mongol defeat? As in, in which battle or campaign did they lose the most men. Japan? Vietnam? Ain Jalut? I recall reading about some ambush that hit a Mongol army in Siberia.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Probably the second invasion of the Song dynasty, not only was the entire invasion pushed back but it also caused the death of Mongke khan (reason for death depends on the source). This was the catalyst that caused the end of a unified Mongol Empire.

From purakjelia:

The First Song-Mongol War: Mongol Defeat

In 1235, Ogedei Khan launched the second western expedition, and meanwhile he also launched a southern campaign against the Song to punish Song's northern expedition. Ogedei divided his army into two, the eastern army was aimed at attacking the Song fortifications along the Huai River, and the western army was aimed at Sichuan.

This time, the Mongols faced fierce resistance from the Song, and the progress was slow. In 1236, the western force in Sichuan had captured the Yangping Pass and the eastern force had captured Xiangyang, two important strategical points. The Mongols forces started to gather in Hubei and planned to cross the Yangtse River. The Song court was shocked and they sent their best general Meng Gong to the rescue. Meng Gong had participated in the siege of Caizhou in 1234 and he knew how the Mongols fought. Meng Gong destroyed 24 Mongol camps along the Yangtse River and he won the battle in Jiangling. Mongol's plan to cross the Yangtse River had failed.

The tug of war between the Song and the Mongols lasted for several years, with gains and losses on both sides. In 1239, Song general Du Gao defeated the Mongols in Luzhou, and the Mongol army on the east side retreated. Meanwhile in the west, Meng Gong launched a counter-attack against the Mongols, retaking Xiang Fan and Xinyang. The Mongol armies in Sichuan were approaching the Three Gorges, Meng Gong again launched another counteroffensive, defeating the Mongols at Da Ya Zhai and retook the city of Kuizhou. In 1241, both of the Mongol armies had been defeated, and Ogedei Khan died that same year. The Mongol armies in Sichuan retreated to the north. This marked the end of the first Song-Mongol war which lasted for six years from 1235 to 1241, and the Mongols had been defeated.

Meng Gong was one of the best generals during the Song period, comparable to Yue Fei. Actually, Meng Gong's great grandfather had served in Yue Fei's army.

The Great Detour

The Mongols were fierce warriors but they also had some very good tactics. One of their tactics was that if you face too much resistance in one area, you make a detour and go for the area that is undefended or less defended. We have already seen that they did this during the conquest of the Jin, avoiding the heavy Jurchen defenses in the front, making a detour through Song territory and attacking the Jurchens from behind.

In 1241, after the death of Ogedei Khan, there was a conflict about who would inherit the throne. Ogedei's son Guyuk inherited the throne, but he died two years later. During this time the Mongols attacked Sichuan, but was defeated by Song general Yu Jie. Yu built a series of mountain fortresses during his tenure as the Governor of Sichuan, including the famous Fishing Town Fortress, and these fortresses would prove to have great use in the second Song-Mongol war.

In 1251, the Mongols finally decided to let Mongke Khan to inherit the throne. Mongke was the son of Tolui and grandson of Chinggis Khan. After his enthronement, Mongke launched the third western expedition, and he also planned to invade the Song again.

To avoid the Song fortifications along the Huai and the Yangtse rivers, Mongke's younger brother Kublai suggested that they could make a great detour to attack the southwestern kingdom of Dali, located in modernday Yunnan, and then invade the Song from behind. Mongke accepted Kublai's plan and in 1252 he sent Kublai with 100,000 troops to invade Dali. In 1254, Kublai captured the last Dali emperor Duan Xingzhi.

The Second Song-Mongol War: Death of Mongke

After the First Song-Mongol war, the famous Song generals such as Meng Gong and Du Gao all passed away. During this time, the Mongols conquered Dali kingdom located on the southwestern border of the Song Dynasty, encircling the Song from three sides. In 1258, Mongke launched another large-scale war against the Song. He devided his army into three: the Central Army, led by Mongke himself, was aimed at taking Sichuan and Chongqing; the Southern Army, launching the attack from Yunnan and aimed at taking Guangxi and Tanzhou (modernday Changsha); the Northern Army, led by Kublai, was aimed at taking Ezhou (modernday Wuhan). The plan was that the three armies would converge at Ezhou, and then follow the Yangtse River downstream to take the Song capital Lin'an (modernday Hangzhou).

The Central Army led by Mongke himself initially had a lot of success, captured fort by fort and city by city, took Chengdu, and conquered much of Sichuan. The Mongols followed the Jialing river downstream and tried to capture Chongqing. Hezhou was a gateway to Chongqing, and the famous Song general Meng Gong was stationed here before. Meng Gong and Yu Jie had built a series of fortresses around Hezhou, one of which was the Fishing Town Fortress. Their successor Wang Jian improved the fortifications. In 1259, Mongke's army arrived at Hezhou, and he ordered to attack the Fishing Town Fortress. After several months of hard battles and tug of war, the Mongols still could not take the fortress. Mongke became more and more impatient, he personally led the army to attack the city, but he was hit by a projectile launched from a Song catapult, and he died later that night (another account mentioned that Mongke was infected with disease and died during the siege). The Central Army retreated after the death of Mongke. Meanwhile in Ezhou, Kublai also faced fierce Song resistance and could not take the city. At this time, the Song chancellor Jia Sidao negotiated for peace with Kublai, and Kublai agreed to end the war because he wanted to go back to Mongolia and take the throne. In 1260, all the three Mongol armies retreated back to the north, and the second Song-Mongol war also ended in Mongol defeat.
 
Oct 2018
1,538
Sydney
Probably the second invasion of the Song dynasty, not only was the entire invasion pushed back but it also caused the death of Mongke khan (reason for death depends on the source). This was the catalyst that caused the end of a unified Mongol Empire.

From purakjelia:

The First Song-Mongol War: Mongol Defeat

In 1235, Ogedei Khan launched the second western expedition, and meanwhile he also launched a southern campaign against the Song to punish Song's northern expedition. Ogedei divided his army into two, the eastern army was aimed at attacking the Song fortifications along the Huai River, and the western army was aimed at Sichuan.

This time, the Mongols faced fierce resistance from the Song, and the progress was slow. In 1236, the western force in Sichuan had captured the Yangping Pass and the eastern force had captured Xiangyang, two important strategical points. The Mongols forces started to gather in Hubei and planned to cross the Yangtse River. The Song court was shocked and they sent their best general Meng Gong to the rescue. Meng Gong had participated in the siege of Caizhou in 1234 and he knew how the Mongols fought. Meng Gong destroyed 24 Mongol camps along the Yangtse River and he won the battle in Jiangling. Mongol's plan to cross the Yangtse River had failed.

The tug of war between the Song and the Mongols lasted for several years, with gains and losses on both sides. In 1239, Song general Du Gao defeated the Mongols in Luzhou, and the Mongol army on the east side retreated. Meanwhile in the west, Meng Gong launched a counter-attack against the Mongols, retaking Xiang Fan and Xinyang. The Mongol armies in Sichuan were approaching the Three Gorges, Meng Gong again launched another counteroffensive, defeating the Mongols at Da Ya Zhai and retook the city of Kuizhou. In 1241, both of the Mongol armies had been defeated, and Ogedei Khan died that same year. The Mongol armies in Sichuan retreated to the north. This marked the end of the first Song-Mongol war which lasted for six years from 1235 to 1241, and the Mongols had been defeated.

Meng Gong was one of the best generals during the Song period, comparable to Yue Fei. Actually, Meng Gong's great grandfather had served in Yue Fei's army.

The Great Detour

The Mongols were fierce warriors but they also had some very good tactics. One of their tactics was that if you face too much resistance in one area, you make a detour and go for the area that is undefended or less defended. We have already seen that they did this during the conquest of the Jin, avoiding the heavy Jurchen defenses in the front, making a detour through Song territory and attacking the Jurchens from behind.

In 1241, after the death of Ogedei Khan, there was a conflict about who would inherit the throne. Ogedei's son Guyuk inherited the throne, but he died two years later. During this time the Mongols attacked Sichuan, but was defeated by Song general Yu Jie. Yu built a series of mountain fortresses during his tenure as the Governor of Sichuan, including the famous Fishing Town Fortress, and these fortresses would prove to have great use in the second Song-Mongol war.

In 1251, the Mongols finally decided to let Mongke Khan to inherit the throne. Mongke was the son of Tolui and grandson of Chinggis Khan. After his enthronement, Mongke launched the third western expedition, and he also planned to invade the Song again.

To avoid the Song fortifications along the Huai and the Yangtse rivers, Mongke's younger brother Kublai suggested that they could make a great detour to attack the southwestern kingdom of Dali, located in modernday Yunnan, and then invade the Song from behind. Mongke accepted Kublai's plan and in 1252 he sent Kublai with 100,000 troops to invade Dali. In 1254, Kublai captured the last Dali emperor Duan Xingzhi.

The Second Song-Mongol War: Death of Mongke

After the First Song-Mongol war, the famous Song generals such as Meng Gong and Du Gao all passed away. During this time, the Mongols conquered Dali kingdom located on the southwestern border of the Song Dynasty, encircling the Song from three sides. In 1258, Mongke launched another large-scale war against the Song. He devided his army into three: the Central Army, led by Mongke himself, was aimed at taking Sichuan and Chongqing; the Southern Army, launching the attack from Yunnan and aimed at taking Guangxi and Tanzhou (modernday Changsha); the Northern Army, led by Kublai, was aimed at taking Ezhou (modernday Wuhan). The plan was that the three armies would converge at Ezhou, and then follow the Yangtse River downstream to take the Song capital Lin'an (modernday Hangzhou).

The Central Army led by Mongke himself initially had a lot of success, captured fort by fort and city by city, took Chengdu, and conquered much of Sichuan. The Mongols followed the Jialing river downstream and tried to capture Chongqing. Hezhou was a gateway to Chongqing, and the famous Song general Meng Gong was stationed here before. Meng Gong and Yu Jie had built a series of fortresses around Hezhou, one of which was the Fishing Town Fortress. Their successor Wang Jian improved the fortifications. In 1259, Mongke's army arrived at Hezhou, and he ordered to attack the Fishing Town Fortress. After several months of hard battles and tug of war, the Mongols still could not take the fortress. Mongke became more and more impatient, he personally led the army to attack the city, but he was hit by a projectile launched from a Song catapult, and he died later that night (another account mentioned that Mongke was infected with disease and died during the siege). The Central Army retreated after the death of Mongke. Meanwhile in Ezhou, Kublai also faced fierce Song resistance and could not take the city. At this time, the Song chancellor Jia Sidao negotiated for peace with Kublai, and Kublai agreed to end the war because he wanted to go back to Mongolia and take the throne. In 1260, all the three Mongol armies retreated back to the north, and the second Song-Mongol war also ended in Mongol defeat.
I'd forgotten (but had known) that Mongke died fighting the Song, but I had no idea just how many defeats the Mongols suffered in their wars with the Song!
 
Jul 2018
31
Istanbul
1-Ain Jalut was lost due to the over confidence of the Mongol general Kitbuqha(himself was a Nestorian Naiman Turk). Kitbugha under normal circumstances was a victorious and respected general of Hulagu but in this battle he relied too much on his warriors' superiority. So because of this he wasnt suprised when Mamluks did a feigned retreat, he didnt expect it to be a tactic, he was too confident. He probably thought ''they already know the fame of the warriors of Mongol Empire, they probably got scared'' Dont forget that in battle of Kosedag, Seljuks just fled the battlefield as only the first line they sent against the enemy got annihiliated. They didnt even try it.

2-In Ain Jalut both sides' commanders were Turkic. Qutuz was a kipchak Turk enslaved and raised as a Mamluk, Baibars was a sub-commander of Qutuz and his origin was same with him, Kitbugha was like I said a Nestorian Naiman Turk. For the armies I know that Mongols had Georgians and Armenians on their side, Though I doubt they passed 1000 in total. For the Mamluks I think we all know they were Turkic slaves but I cannot say if there were non-Mamluk soldiers in the Mamluk army but even if there were I assume they were just levies.
By the way I dont know how Mongol were the Mongol warriors, rather than the Armenians and Georgians I mentioned, Mongols within themselves may have central asian Turkic tribes because dont forget even durning the foundation 3 out of 5 founding tribes Keraits, Mergits and Naimans were Turkic and Turkic/Mongol ratio increased as the Khanate expanded.

3- For the numbers the youtube channel Kings and Generals say Mongols had 25.000 men and Mamluks outnumbered them at least 2 to 1. So Mamluks were 50.000. It seems a bit too much to me though.
Wikipedia says 15-20k Mamluks vs 10-12k Mongols. Keep in mind that Hulagu probably took away the best soldiers with himself to China.

I think despite the defeat Mongols were the better warriors here because they almost won the battle even though being outnumbered 2 to 1 and despite this the enemy had to do tactics to defeat them. Mongols just charged at them blindly.