The bombing of Dresde

Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#41
Patton's orders in Jan/Feb were to advance on Dresden and pivot into Czechoslovakia, Ike changed his orders in March to advance directly on Bavaria. Patton was advancing from the Saarland after stemming the Bulge.
Again, for the very last time, Patton did not have orders to advance on Dresden, in far eastern Germany, when in January, Patton's Third Army was still performing the counter offensive to reclaim lost ground during the battle of the Bulge, west of the Rhine, and in February was trying to fight through the West Stellung and breach the Rhine, which wasn't accomplished until mid March, weeks after Dresden was bombed.

This is very very simple to understand. Patton is only a field army commander. Above him was Bradley, an army group commander, and above him is Ike, SHAEF commander. In January to February none of them had their sights set on anything besides getting inside Germany. They sure didn't have anything set on Eastern Germany when that entire sector had already been given to the Soviets. They sure as heck weren't concerned about concocting an operation to stop Germans from retreating south into Austria when the Germans were still tenaciously holding their borders.




No where at all is the Ore Mountains near Austria, which is Southeast of Bavaria, whereas Saxony, where the Ore mountains are located, only borders Czechoslovakia.

At this point you're either too ignorant to take seriously or you're trolling. Either way, I'm done responding to you, way to infuriating to keep having to explain why 2+2 isn't 5.[/QUOTE]
 

Haesten

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,776
#42
(April) "To the south, Patton's 3rd Army was to drive east to Chemnitz, about 40 mi (64 km) southeast of Leipzig, but well short of the Elbe, and then turn southeast into Austria."

Chemnitz is 37 miles from Dresden, also flattened in the proceeding months. SHAEF air planning the raid in January is a matter of record, classified for 30 years allowing a lot of tosh to be written about the Dresden raid.

  • 14/15 February 1945: The first major raid on Chemnitz used 717 RAF bombers, but due to cloud cover most bombs fell over open countryside.
  • 2/3–5 March: USAAF bombers attacked the marshalling yards.
  • 5 March: 760 RAF bombers attacked.

The Destruction of Dresden - Wikipedia

"The Destruction of Dresden is a 1963 book by David Irving, in which Irving describes the February 1945 Allied bombing of Dresden in World War II. The book became an international best-seller during the 1960s debate about the morality of the World War II area bombing of the civilian population of Nazi Germany. The book is no longer considered to be an authoritative or reliable account of the Allied bombing and destruction of Dresden during February 1945"
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#43
(April) "To the south, Patton's 3rd Army was to drive east to Chemnitz, about 40 mi (64 km) southeast of Leipzig, but well short of the Elbe, and then turn southeast into Austria."

Chemnitz is 37 miles from Dresden, also flattened in the proceeding months. SHAEF air planning the raid in January is a matter of record, classified for 30 years allowing a lot of tosh to be written about the Dresden raid.

  • 14/15 February 1945: The first major raid on Chemnitz used 717 RAF bombers, but due to cloud cover most bombs fell over open countryside.
  • 2/3–5 March: USAAF bombers attacked the marshalling yards.
  • 5 March: 760 RAF bombers attacked.

The Destruction of Dresden - Wikipedia

"The Destruction of Dresden is a 1963 book by David Irving, in which Irving describes the February 1945 Allied bombing of Dresden in World War II. The book became an international best-seller during the 1960s debate about the morality of the World War II area bombing of the civilian population of Nazi Germany. The book is no longer considered to be an authoritative or reliable account of the Allied bombing and destruction of Dresden during February 1945"
I can't pass this up since you just quoted the book by probably the most famous Holocaust denier of all time and the rest of Historum needs to be made aware that somebody who quotes a Holocaust denier always has a purpose and that purpose is never good for the historical record.

And just to promote how utterly ridiculous this back and forth has gotten the quote you posted about Patton referenced a wikipedia paragraph describing events that occurred in MID APRIL 1945, THREE MONTHS AFTER THE END OF THE VISTULA ODER OFFENSIVE THE SOVIETS ASKED THE ALLIES TO SUPPORT, TWO MONTHS AFTER THE DRESDEN RAIDS, A MONTH AFTER PATTON BROKE INTO GERMANY, A WEEK AFTER THE REDUCTION OF MOST GERMAN FORCES OF OB WEST IN THE RUHR POCKET.

Just stop already
 
Likes: Mortari

Haesten

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,776
#44
No where at all is the Ore Mountains near Austria, which is Southeast of Bavaria, whereas Saxony, where the Ore mountains are located, only borders Czechoslovakia.
Böhmerwald mountains stretch right down to Austria, there's a continuous mountain barrier right up to Dresden on the Elbe/valley where Patton could pivot into Czechoslovakia.

Bohemian Forest - Wikipedia

Are you really saying SHAEF had no plans on what to do next until they crossed the Rhine?
 

Haesten

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,776
#45
I can't pass this up since you just quoted the book by probably the most famous Holocaust denier of all time and the rest of Historum needs to be made aware that somebody who quotes a Holocaust denier always has a purpose and that purpose is never good for the historical record.

And just to promote how utterly ridiculous this back and forth has gotten the quote you posted about Patton referenced a wikipedia paragraph describing events that occurred in MID APRIL 1945, THREE MONoTHS AFTER THE END OF THE VISTULA ODER OFFENSIVE THE SOVIETS ASKED THE ALLIES TO SUPPORT, TWO MONTHS AFTER THE DRESDEN RAIDS, A MONTH AFTER PATTON BROKE INTO GERMANY, A WEEK AFTER THE REDUCTION OF MOST GERMAN FORCES OF OB WEST IN THE RUHR POCKET.

Just stop already
Irving in 63 was the one who pointed the finger of blame at Churchill for the Dresden raid, he was very popular among the left, ban the bomb types, who did not like Churchill.
 
Sep 2012
102
#47
As others have stated, Dresden (while having little in the way of "strategic" industry) was a major hub for the Reichsbahn and as such, was every bit justified as a target for attention. Another "insignificant" town that suffered a similar (actually FAR worse proportionally speaking) fate was Pforzheim. It too was a significant node in the Reichsbahn and as such it was also razed by the RAF. After three years of seemingly ineffective targeting strategies, the WAllies had finally figured out that if you utterly destroyed internal LOC's? Nothing moved...
Beginning in the Autumn of 1944, much effort had been expended to this end. These raids (Dresden and dozens of others) were a continuation of a strategy that was having a visible effect. By this period in the timeline, German industrial output was virtually paralyzed; they could still manufacture components (while the facilities ran down their stocks of resources) but re-supply and delivery of completed sub-assemblies (by canal/rail) had essentially collapsed. There was really no valid reason for the WAllies to take their "foot off the gas pedal". There were hundreds of thousands of rail-car loads stranded all over the Reich by 1 March, 1945. This is shown in the operational records of the Reichsbahn, which are held in BAMA. They could still run trains, but the capacity was so constricted by this point that it became a matter of picking what was the most urgent priority.
I once held a very different view on this subject but after studying the matter in depth it all makes much more sense.
See: "The Collapse of the German War Economy..." by A.C. Mierzejewski.
His work does not specifically investigate Dresden. It is an analysis of the effect of bombing on German industrial output (vis-a-vis LOC interdiction) during the last twelve months of the war.
The justifications/conclusions I draw are based on my own interpretations of his research.

It's well worth reading, IMO.The Collapse of the German War Economy, 1944-1945
 

Haesten

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,776
#48
Full text of "Why Dresden Was Bombed: A Review Of The Reasons And Reactions (Unclassified)"

inaccessible mountains.

In his memoirs, Sir Winston S. Churchill, the British Prime
Minister, mentions only the bare fact that Dresden was bombed
in February 1945« He notes, however, that the city was "then
a centre of communications of Germany's Eastern Front." 1 3 Sir
Winston also reveals that General Eisenhower's main attack was
to be made in the direction of Dresden in order to truncate the
German forces and prevent possible resistance in the so-called
National Redoubt in the Austrian Alps. This plan was completely
acceptable to Marshal Joseph Stalin and indicated mutual agree-
ment with immediate war aims. Referring to a direct telegram
that General Eisenhower sent to Marshal Stalin on 23 March 1945 >

Churchill states

Eisenhower said that after isolating the Ruhr
he proposed to make his main thrust along the
axis Erfurt-Leipzig-Dresden , which, by joining
hands with the Russians, would cut in two the
remaining German forces. A secondary advance
through Regensburg to Linz , where also he
expected to meet the Russians, would prevent
"the consolidation of German resistance in the
redoubt in Southern Germany." Stalin agreed
readily. He said that the proposal "entirely
coincides with the plan of the Soviet High
Command. "
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#49
Full text of "Why Dresden Was Bombed: A Review Of The Reasons And Reactions (Unclassified)"

inaccessible mountains.

In his memoirs, Sir Winston S. Churchill, the British Prime
Minister, mentions only the bare fact that Dresden was bombed
in February 1945« He notes, however, that the city was "then
a centre of communications of Germany's Eastern Front." 1 3 Sir
Winston also reveals that General Eisenhower's main attack was
to be made in the direction of Dresden in order to truncate the
German forces and prevent possible resistance in the so-called
National Redoubt in the Austrian Alps. This plan was completely
acceptable to Marshal Joseph Stalin and indicated mutual agree-
ment with immediate war aims. Referring to a direct telegram
that General Eisenhower sent to Marshal Stalin on 23 March 1945 >

Churchill states

Eisenhower said that after isolating the Ruhr
he proposed to make his main thrust along the
axis Erfurt-Leipzig-Dresden , which, by joining
hands with the Russians, would cut in two the
remaining German forces. A secondary advance
through Regensburg to Linz , where also he
expected to meet the Russians, would prevent
"the consolidation of German resistance in the
redoubt in Southern Germany." Stalin agreed
readily. He said that the proposal "entirely
coincides with the plan of the Soviet High
Command. "
23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945 23 March 1945

 

Haesten

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,776
#50
The 8th Airforce records were declassified in 1978, SHAEF air targeted Dresden in early January to support Patton's planned advance. On 16th January 133 B17s of the 8th Airforce hit the rail yards, they were back in action within a couple of weeks and an area raid was requested from the RAF. On the 14th of February 772 Lancasters of Bomber Command hit the city and 316 B17s hit the rail yards.
 

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