The current plight of Native Americans, African Americans, Maoris, and the Aborigines

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,354
Australia
#82
Before addressing your points could you point me to that "other thread" where I "refuse to answer your questions"
My bad. I had you confused with someone else. Sorry about that, (Just as well I decided to answer you anyway :) )

But I feel I can claim special privilege , even though our history is young , non of the listed things have happened to us. We haven't had a major invasion or war here ( an attack on Darwin and a sub in Sydney Harbor , a couple of shells) ... and again, like the above .... although we have gone and got involved in other unjust wars elsewhere ... or been cannon fodder' . Our natural environment is fairly stable too.
 

Belgarion

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,711
Australia
#83
Why would we do that ? Land rights claims have nothing to do with 'our homes ' . But nice attempt to try and get some emotive reaction stirred up about it .

" Aboriginal people can only claim vacant government-owned land ("Crown land") under the Native Title Act and they must prove a continuous relationship with this land. "Freehold title" is land owned by individual owners, companies or local councils. Such lands cannot be claimed
The point I am making is that the bleeding hearts who go on about 'invasion' seem quite happy to enjoy the fruits of that 'invasion' in a modern first world nation, whereas if they were truly as invested in correcting these past injustices as they claim to be they would be the first offering up their own property as compensation. But they , along with the professional Aborigines, would rather scream and shout about how horrible white Australians are instead of actually doing anything practical for the Aboriginal people who really do need help.... a classic example...31-year-old man is arrested in relation to sexual assault of seven-year-old girl in Bagot NT | Daily Mail Online now if only we had changed the date of Australia Day, none of this would have happened...:rolleyes:
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,554
Florania
#84
Has there been a complicated history, including dispossession, massacres, ethnic cleansing, slavery, genocide etc... ? Of course

But then which human group has NOT suffered the above in their history ?

The difference is that some have forgotten and/or forgiven and moved on...... Others keep on excusing their own failures by refering to their tragic history (whose is not ?).... If you've had equal rights for 2 or 3+ generations, whatever tragedy your ancestors may have suffered in the past is really not an excuse....

Just a simple example... In just 10 years , starting from scratch the chinese have build more mileage of high speed railroads than the rest of the world combined (At over 25 000 km... to compare France which has been at it since the 1980s has less than 3 000 km as has Japan) since forever.... Did the chinese whine and moan about how the opium wars, dispossession , colonization etc... kept them from having high speed trains ? Nope.. They just built them high speed tracks (among many other things).....
Something is different here:
China might have gone from the impoverished, agrarian country of 1949 to the most powerful NIC (Newly Industrialized Country) by far; then, it would be unfair to compare between Aboriginal people and China.
China regained all of its sovereignty in 1949; the Aboriginal people are still living in the poorest communities in the world.
When these people move to cities, they are still marginalized and often do not find meaningful employments.
Why do Aboriginal people fail to adapt to our current information economy?
 
Feb 2011
6,462
#85
tomar said:
The difference is that some have forgotten and/or forgiven and moved on...... Others keep on excusing their own failures by refering to their tragic history (whose is not ?).... If you've had equal rights for 2 or 3+ generations, whatever tragedy your ancestors may have suffered in the past is really not an excuse....

Just a simple example... In just 10 years , starting from scratch the chinese have build more mileage of high speed railroads than the rest of the world combined (At over 25 000 km... to compare France which has been at it since the 1980s has less than 3 000 km as has Japan) since forever.... Did the chinese whine and moan about how the opium wars, dispossession , colonization etc... kept them from having high speed trains ? Nope.. They just built them high speed tracks (among many other things).....
Who said China forgot? China makes a lot of effort to NOT forget, but to be fair this effort is very focused on what Qing China did wrong and how to prevent it from happening again, and the reason is from a fairly communist perspective (feudalism couldn't compete with capitalism) which personally isn't that accurate, as Qing China wasn't feudal. And if you don't want it happening again, then you shouldn't forget. Hell, the reason why the Chinese government today takes such a hard stance against drugs, including soft drugs, probably stems from the Opium Wars. Doubly so when it comes to drug dealing by foreigners. And by 'hard stance', I mean death penalty. Possession of 50g with intent to sell means 5 years of prison in the US, but the death penalty in China. Foreigners who deal drugs in China are basically seen as complete idiots considering the high risk and massively high penalty.

Picture from a Chinese textbook on the Opium Wars:



Rough Partial translation: In June 1840, the English navy entered the sea of Guangdong, igniting the Opium Wars. The defenses of Guangdong are thick, the English army could not enter, so they went North along the coast, to attack Xiamen. Xiamen's defending armies met with the English army in battle, and beat back the English army. The English army continued Northwards, and attacked ZheJiang, and finally entered the Mouth of Baihe, threatening Beijing. The Qing government panicked greatly, and negotiated with the English army, saying that as long as the English army withdraw back to Guangdong, then Lin Zexu [the person who made the biggest dent against the British Opium trade] will be dismissed. Thus, the English Army went South toward Guangdong...... [moves on to say how the Qing military at Zhenjiang suffered defeat due to heavily outdated equipment, and the final stipulations between the British and Chinese government in the Treaty of Nanking.]

Also I can't help but notice that some of the very same people [not you] who denounced African business deals with China based on mutual consensus, would defend actual, legitimate colonialism in which locals were treated as subhumans. Absolutely hypocritical to the N-th degree.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,765
#86
My bad. I had you confused with someone else. Sorry about that, (Just as well I decided to answer you anyway :) )

But I feel I can claim special privilege , even though our history is young , non of the listed things have happened to us. We haven't had a major invasion or war here ( an attack on Darwin and a sub in Sydney Harbor , a couple of shells) ... and again, like the above .... although we have gone and got involved in other unjust wars elsewhere ... or been cannon fodder' . Our natural environment is fairly stable too.
No problem

But history does not start 200 or 250 years ago....it goes back millenia..... So if you have "european" ancestry (thats fairly broad btw) your ancestors have suffered endless wars, slavery, feudality, famine, pestilence (imported from Asia) invasions and slaughter at the hand of the mongols, huns, arabs turks etc... and even the romans (if you're not tracing your ancestry to Rome)

A simple example, why should we have sympathy for people who are claiming land as theirs ? Most of us dont own land (aside perhaps from a few hundred square meters of suburban turf that our house is sitting on if we have one), our parents did not, our grand parents did not either... which means at some point our ancestors were dispossed from land (since way back most everyone was a peasant with a least some land)...

I can even add that in some countries inheritance tax makes sure that after a few generation ownerhsip is pretty much wiped out unless one multiplies their inheritance during their lifetime... For example in France inheritance tax can be up to 45%... meaning the state takes almost half away for each generation.... (thats in addition to dilution when there are several heirs)... So if one inhereited say 1000 ha of land, the equivalent of 450 goes to the state..... And if one wishes to transmit 1000 ha to one's heir then during their lifetime they need to earn enough to accumulate the equivalent of these 450.....If they just maintain their ownership, they will transmit only 550 and so on down the line...
(next heir will get 55% of 550, so only about 300.... so just in 2 generations land ownerships would be down from the original 1000 to 300)


When there is a claim that some do not have equal rights I would expect to see actual legal texts that evidence this.. If there are not any (which seems to be the case in the US and likely in Australia though I admit not to be familiar with Australian legislation) then they DO in fact have equal rights... The rest is political discourse aiming at actually claiming MORE rights for certain categories (instead of equal rights) based on emotional appeal (e.g. using words like "plight") and pushing the idea that certain categories are due "reparations" (its always one way btw and always based on identify politics and emotions)
 
Feb 2011
6,462
#87
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Likes: specul8

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,765
#88
In terms of equal rights, there's a big difference between how it's supposed to work on paper, and what actually happens in reality.

Blacks get longer sentences for the same crime, based on the United States Sentencing Commission, but the situation is improving:
https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/...h-publications/2017/20171114_Demographics.pdf

And gets less callbacks when using the same resume:
That's a different matter (there is no "right to a call back") and it relates to prejudice. No government can force its citizens to "not be prejudiced".
So its not an "equal right" issue

You'll also note that although there is a lot of noise about "women getting less pay than men" (in most cases using skewed data) there is no similar noise about "minorities getting less pay for the same job" which most probably means that there is no pay discrimination.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,354
Australia
#89
The point I am making is that the bleeding hearts who go on about 'invasion' seem quite happy to enjoy the fruits of that 'invasion' in a modern first world nation, whereas if they were truly as invested in correcting these past injustices as they claim to be they would be the first offering up their own property as compensation.
Would they ? Thats a very simplistic solution. I am sure you know the issue is much more complex.

You should appreciate this ; from 0:33



But they , along with the professional Aborigines ....
' Professional Aboriginals ' .....

Ohhhh ... you mean like these ;

1550866007254.png
Senator Malarndirri-Mccarthy


1550866103509.png
Lawyer Irene Watson


1550866244493.png
Dr. Vinka Barunga

... would rather scream and shout about how horrible white Australians are instead of actually doing anything practical for the Aboriginal people who really do need help.... a classic example...31-year-old man is arrested in relation to sexual assault of seven-year-old girl in Bagot NT | Daily Mail Online now if only we had changed the date of Australia Day, none of this would have happened...:rolleyes:
Wot ? Thats a strange 'chain of logic' .