The disappearance of the classical hoplite

okamido

Forum Staff
Jun 2009
29,885
land of Califia
#24
The Argolids were Dorian as well, but nobody calls them Spartans. Same with Herodotus. He comes from the Dorian colony of Halikarnassus, but he isn't close to being a Spartan.

Just an ethnic group that spread. Example: my surname is Scot, so I trace back to Scotland, but I live in the United States. Another gent that also traces himself to Scoltland, lives in Canada. Same language, similar values (most likely), and a culture that isn't too far removed from each other......but could I be called a Canadian or he a citizen of the United States, just because we both trace back to Scotland? Not really. Same with the Dorians, their various poleis, as well as the colonies.

The Maniots were tough as nails, and were granted perioikoi status for a reason....but they weren't Spartans.
 
Jul 2010
6,851
Not sure what it is
#25
Bye the way, these two guys are from slightly different eras and most probably have never met on battlefield.

On the left side you have Spartan from about Peloponesian wars and on the right side you have typical hoplite from Persian wars and earlier.

After Persian wars, Greeks adopted more open styles of helmets and dropped most, in fact all armour. Spartans seemed to lead the way. Quit surprising given heavy armour supposedly should have given Greeks edge over more lightly armoured Persian troops. That is at last what we tend to think. Makes me consider if we are not wrong about that.
The later hoplites would sometimes even fight naked or almost naked. It was theorized this improved their maneuverability. But Macedonian's phalanx and the far more mobile heavy cavalry combo crushed it.
 

Mangekyou

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
7,915
UK
#26
The Argolids were Dorian as well, but nobody calls them Spartans. Same with Herodotus. He comes from the Dorian colony of Halikarnassus, but he isn't close to being a Spartan.

Just an ethnic group that spread. Example: my surname is Scot, so I trace back to Scotland, but I live in the United States. Another gent that also traces himself to Scoltland, lives in Canada. Same language, similar values (most likely), and a culture that isn't too far removed from each other......but could I be called a Canadian or he a citizen of the United States, just because we both trace back to Scotland? Not really. Same with the Dorians, their various poleis, as well as the colonies.

The Maniots were tough as nails, and were granted perioikoi status for a reason....but they weren't Spartans.
Yes, and I know what you're saying. There was a few Doric states in Greece. Sparta was also a Doric state, and many of the lacdaemonian customs and contitutions, were Doric.

You've probably read it yourself, considering your own knowledge on Sparta, but i'll post it here for general knowledge, anyway, the work of Karl Ottfried Muller, which talks about this very issue:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33743/33743-h/33743-h.html <----vol 1

The Project Gutenberg EBook of The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race, Vol. 2 of 2 by Karl Otfried Müller


As supposed remnants of the Doric race, the Maniotes claimed descendency from Sparta, from when many of their citizens left after Alaric's invasions. I know that doesn't mean that they were Spartans, but I have not come across anything concrete that denies it either.

If you have any information from your own opinions, research, then I would be happy if you'd share it with me :)
 
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#27
Could have sworn I read it elsewhere - but likely, I am confusing it with Caracalla's phalanx experiment. I do believe Sparta was one of the recruiting grounds for his 'Pitanate and Macedonian Phalanx'.
Mike Duncan mentions it in his History of Rome podcast, thought I think he said it was athenian militia. Or is this a completely different event?
 

okamido

Forum Staff
Jun 2009
29,885
land of Califia
#28
Yes, and I know what you're saying. There was a few Doric states in Greece. Sparta was also a Doric state, and many of the lacdaemonian customs and contitutions, were Doric.

You've probably read it yourself, considering your own knowledge on Sparta, but i'll post it here for general knowledge, anyway, the work of Karl Ottfried Muller, which talks about this very issue:

The Project Gutenberg EBook of The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race, Vol. 1 of 2 by Karl Otfried Müller <----vol 1

The Project Gutenberg EBook of The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race, Vol. 2 of 2 by Karl Otfried Müller


As supposed remnants of the Doric race, the Maniotes claimed descendency from Sparta, from when many of their citizens left after Alaric's invasions. I know that doesn't mean that they were Spartans, but I have not come across anything concrete that denies it either.

If you have any information from your own opinions, research, then I would be happy if you'd share it with me :)
I have that book, but haven't read it completely yet. Let me thumb through the passages and see what's what.

Two things though, that book is really old so as we know, knowledge marches on. The other is that just because they might be descended from, does not make them of the same stock. Taras (Tarentines) were a direct Spartan colony with its citizens possessing direct Doric-Spartiate blood.....but nobody has ever called them Spartans.
 

okamido

Forum Staff
Jun 2009
29,885
land of Califia
#29
@ Menshevik,

I apologize if the thread has been hijacked for the research of Spartan geneaology. Say the word and we will get it back on track. ;)
 

Mangekyou

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
7,915
UK
#30
@ Menshevik,

I apologize if the thread has been hijacked for the research of Spartan geneaology. Say the word and we will get it back on track. ;)
Yes, my apologies too. It would've been better to create another thread for more in depth discussion. Though sometimes digression is good debating in depth.
 

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