"The end of the beginning"

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,614
Las Vegas, NV USA
As far as I know this quote from Winston Churchill is either a reference to the Battle of Stalingrad or the Second Battle of El Alamein, I'm not sure which. Does anyone know? I've seen both. Also, this quote has become a popular name for songs and other media. Is this something that can't be copyrighted?

 
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Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,726
Dispargum

El Alamein.

Since Churchill said it in his official capacity, he may not have been entitled to a copyright. It depends on the laws in force at that time and place. In America, government publications are generally not copyrighted. Everything the government publishes immediately enters the public domain. I don't know about British laws.

There's also the issue that "The end of the beginning" is a pretty simple concept. I doubt Churchill was the first to say it.
 
Apr 2014
411
Istanbul Turkey
That quote attributed both Second Battle of El Alamein (which concluded victoriously on 5th November 1942) and Operartion Torch (which started on 8th November 1942)
 

Lord Fairfax

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
3,445
Changing trains at Terrapin Station...
I can't argue the point. However who would consider El Alamein to be the end of the war? Of course it was not the end.
He didn't say the end.
The end of the beginning.
It was the end of the opening act, with the main event (decisive battles) about to begin
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,614
Las Vegas, NV USA
He didn't say the end.
The end of the beginning."
It was the end of the opening act, with the main event (decisive battles) about to begin
The full quote was essentially "This is not the end. It's not the the beginning of the end. But perhaps it is the end of the beginning."

Merdiolu said he was conflating Torch and El Alamein which is better but still obviously not the end. I always thought it was Stalingrad and Kursk where "This is not the end" is more meaningful IMO. Of course those were Soviet, not British victories.
 
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MG1962a

Ad Honorem
Mar 2019
2,174
Kansas
The full quote was essentially "This is not the end. It's not the the beginning of the end. But perhaps it is the end of the beginning.

Merdiolu said he was conflating Torch and El Alamein which is better but still obviously not the end. I always thought it was Stalingrad and Kursk where "This is not the end" is more meaningful IMO. Of course those were Soviet, not British victories.
Churchill also said of the battle

It may almost be said, "Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat".

Different countries are going to view the conduct and outcome of the war with different eyes. For the British and Commonwealth allies El Alamein was our Kursk, Stalingrad or even Midway. It was from that moment that many truly began to believe we could win this thing.
 
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Jan 2019
174
Finland
Yeah, "the end of the beginning" the beginning being for the most part a German victory after another. Now, the Germans have reached their apex, they've been shown to not be invincible and there's a fighting chance against them and perhaps light at the end of the tunnel. It's cautious optimism and hope and acknowledging that there's a lot of hardship to be endured even so.
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,849
Cornwall
Isn't it recorded from radio or something? Pretty sure I've heard it in it's original form.

Whilst you would never get a Kursk in Africa, it's all about the context of the theatre. Alamein was much bigger in terms of numbers than most people think.