The Forgotten Holocaust

Mar 2010
1,960
Florida
Nonsense. I do not make "irrelavant" comparisons, by no means whatsoever. As stated, Jews -- nor any other people for that matter -- have a corner on the genocide market; as much as you lay claim to with the "Never Forget!" attitude you espouse. Get over it, kid; others have been subjected to the resultant consequenses of hatred too.
 

vera

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
9,508
Israel
Nonsense. I do not make "irrelavant" comparisons, by no means whatsoever. As stated, Jews -- nor any other people for that matter -- have a corner on the genocide market; as much as you lay claim to with the "Never Forget!" attitude you espouse. Get over it, kid; others have been subjected to the resultant consequenses of hatred too.
Excuse me, I am neither "your dear" nor "kid". Nor do I "espouse attitude", but I really dislike yours. And not to my personal family lost in Holocaust, nor to other people's - but to the people who converse WITH YOU right now. I see that you are not in the least interested in what people think or tell you, or you will have made at least SOME effort to understand them. By this I can only deduce that your intent in posting this thread was telling us what YOU think. Therefore, all conversation with you henceforth will be totally pointless.

So I am going to take your patronizing and, again, rude advice - and "get over" this conversation, for want of a better word. You have just been awarded the great honor of enlarging my ignore list by 100%.
 

diddyriddick

Historum Emeritas
May 2009
14,692
A tiny hamlet in the Carolina Sandhills
This thread was meant to draw attention to a "forgotten" holocaust, so let's not forget that. By no means will I have this discussion diverted into the subject of THE holocaust. Dig?
Slow down, Kemosabe. I wasn't trying to divert anything. I was merely pointing out that the European holocaust was institutional policy while the rape of Najing was not, as horrible as it may be. If I was wrong on that, I'll stand corrected. It was you who compared Nanjing to the Shoa, I just ran with it.

You seriously need to consider decaf.

Dig?
 

sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,673
San Diego
Sculptingman, this is the sort of gratuitous comment that disrupts an otherwise civil conversation and leads to thread hijacking.

HIJACK:

The attempt to equate the Tea Party movement with Japanese soldiers in China during WWII shows either a complete disregard for the proportions of history or a transparent political agenda, or both.
I apologize if you think I meant to hijack the thread... It was not my intent nor was my comment gratuitous.

I try to point out that in demonizing the nazi's or the japanese as 'bad actors' we blind ourselves to the fact that extremism is a factor in EVERY culture.
The Japanese in Nanking were not Hatched from some demon eggs... they were the product of a cultural process that ultimately enabled these atrocities.

HOW that process occurs is pertinent to the thread. That it can and Has occurred in every culture is pertinent to the thread.

America has its own history of genocide and near genocide... from the treatment of natives, to the internment of Japanese/Americans in WWII.
( there were those who called for their extermination, then, too )


In EVERY culture these forces are referred to as "conservative".

It is the "conservatives" in Israel who just torpedoed the peace process with new "settlements" and that press a zionist agenda.

It is the "conservatives" in the US who seek to demonize Islam, illegal aliens of hispanic heritage, and the 'democrat' party as being genuine and present threats to the saftety and survival of the nation.

It is "conservatives" in Saudi Arabia who support Madrassas, the Wahabist movement, and Al Queda.

It is Tea Partyers that talk openly, today, about armed insurrection against their own government, who bring guns to rallys, and idiots like Palin and Bachman who employ the rhetoric of arms, violence and killing to excite the emotions of their base.

Your defense of tea party tactics, claiming they were "attacked" by liberals is akin to complaining that the neo nazis marching thru a Jewish suburb of Chicago got attacked.
The key is provocation... the objective of the tea Party movement is to provoke. When you are calling congressmen by racial and other epithets, waving placards demanding armed revolt, and spitting on the duly elected representatives of a republic, you are TRYING to get someone to throw a rock.

And that is how every authoritarian movement begins. Use extremism wrapped in the flag to provoke response from those you oppose.


Look around the world and the forces that beget the greatest horrors are those that are seeking to stifle 'change', and progress, and whose arguments always appeal to people's "fear of Other". Fear of change.

What makes this worse is that a small group of essentially bold and power hungry people can often take control of this normally small group of extremists and spread fear thru a culture to the point of confusing the majority.

There are ALWAYS industrialists and investors behind every extremist call for 'conservative principles'...
men who stand to become even more vastly rich at the expense of promoting fear.
For Hitler and Tojo, it was their own military industrial complexes.

For Al Queda and the islamists, it is the Saudi and Emirate sheikdoms, seeking to keep the west preoccupied and dependent on their oil.


This is the History of EVERY genocidal movement. They ALL begin with talk of secession and revolution, of patriotism and true belief, with fear and scapegoating and the demonization of the opposition. With making the country 'safe' from whatever external or internal threat they can trump up.

This happens most often in times of economic upheaval or crisis.


We are, ALL of us, always living in peril of veering in that direction as a culture.

Sorry, my friend. When the passage of a much needed and minimally impactful health care bill can cause people to toss bricks thru the windows of democratic party offices across the country... that right there proves who is provoking and promoting violence and extremism.


And please understand... I am not opposed to TRUE conservatism. To fiscal responsibility and minimal government intrusion into our lives... ( something you achieve thru checking government power thru individual rights )
I miss the days of real conservative contribution and I honestly believe that conservative pressure is critical to tempering the pace and scope of change...

But that is not where we are...

we have a group of powerful men spending lots of money to whip up a false sense of threat for the express purpose of enacting a radical agenda of plutocratic fiat. Corporations as PEOPLE... who can not be incarcerated for their crimes.
Trying as hard as they can to convince the American people that something that will only impact THEIR profits is "destroying" the nation.


The Stanford experiments proved that it is not hard at all to get people to do violence to strangers.

The real lesson of the Holocaust, and Nanking is that Liberty requires of us eternal vigilance, not so much aimed at others, but at ourselves.

The Republicans do themselves a disservice in allowing the hate filled fears of a tiny minority to dominate and shape their political agenda.
But it serves the needs of those who stand to make money.

You can call it hijacking all you want...

But I maintain... if you want to understand the holocaust and nanking... you have to understand where they began.

Take a look around the US today... bend an ear to the rhetoric of violence, the tacit threats woven into right wing placards, banners and speeches.
Look at the fear being whipped up over what is nothing more than an attempt to regulate an industry that holds our very lives in its hands...

This is how it started... Patriotic hypocrisy claiming the government has become evil...


In the past... many nations, the US included, came near, yet in the end veered away from this kind of extremism...
Just like the Germans, we imprisoned, and took all their property... but did not kill the Nisei.


In terms of your attempt to make what I see as a cogent argument into some kind of hijacking...
how many times does someone here post the caveat that those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it?

The forces that make a holocaust are still present... everywhere in the world.

I use the example of my own country because that is where I live and what I see.
In other nations, I am sure they can see their own battles with the dark side of human nature.
 

Toltec

Ad Honorem
Apr 2008
7,923
Hyperborea
In a word, yes. That such a thing could happen is horrible...perhaps moreso since the Japanese people have never acknowleged responsibility.

The Chinese themselves wiped out almost the entire population of Nanking during the Taiping Rebellion and still haven't acknowledged responsibility.

Pot calling kettle black comes to mind.


Though the Chinese would say it's different, they have the perfect right to wipe out one of their own cities, and we know that argument's correct, don't we.
 
Mar 2010
1,960
Florida
Excuse me, I am neither "your dear" nor "kid". Nor do I "espouse attitude", but I really dislike yours. And not to my personal family lost in Holocaust, nor to other people's - but to the people who converse WITH YOU right now. I see that you are not in the least interested in what people think or tell you, or you will have made at least SOME effort to understand them. By this I can only deduce that your intent in posting this thread was telling us what YOU think. Therefore, all conversation with you henceforth will be totally pointless.

So I am going to take your patronizing and, again, rude advice - and "get over" this conversation, for want of a better word. You have just been awarded the great honor of enlarging my ignore list by 100%.
Yet wrong again, Vera. My whole purpose in posting this thread (as I've stated twice now) is to draw attention to others than the Jews who suffered during the last century. What next?...I'm a neo-Nazi for doing so? Nice try, but as I say, I will not have this thread diverted into a discussion of THE holocaust -- not if I can help it.

btw -- Methinks your histrionic over-emphasis and capitalization says a lot about your attitude.

ciao, baby
 

diddyriddick

Historum Emeritas
May 2009
14,692
A tiny hamlet in the Carolina Sandhills
Psssst! Augustus! Just a hint....Vera has logged over 6,000 posts, and is well respected here. Perhaps you could learn something from her.
 
Mar 2010
1,960
Florida
The Chinese themselves wiped out almost the entire population of Nanking during the Taipaing Rebellion and still haven't acknowledged responsibility.

Pot calling kettle black comes to mind.


Though the Chinese would say it's different, they have the perfect right to wipe out one of their own cities, and we know that argument's correct, don't we.
Were you aware that (as of the publishing of Chang's book in 1997 anyway) the Japanese have steadfastly refused to acknowledge the holocaust that occurred in Nanking? So much for the this calling the other that, eh?
 
Mar 2010
1,960
Florida
Psssst! Augustus! Just a hint....Vera has logged over 6,000 posts here and is well respected. Perhaps you could learn something from her.
Wow, that is indeed impressive -- 6,000 posts...my my...

But psst! Here's a little something you can "learn" (maybe): It matters not the quantity, but the quality of a member's posts.
 

Pericles

Historum Emeritas
Dec 2006
3,220
New Jersey, USA
Wow, that is indeed impressive -- 6,000 posts...my my...

But psst! Here's a little something you can "learn" (maybe): It matters not the quantity, but the quality of a member's posts.
Vera has made a great many quality posts on this forum.

You, on the other hand, are one rude post away from facing disciplinary action.

Pericles
Historum Administrator