The Holodomor in Ukraine

Nov 2015
1,741
Kyiv
In Polish it is also 'na Ukrainie'. The term comes from the days when Ukraine was not a recognised separate state.
The first name of the first recognised separate state in Ukraine was Rus

Please remember this. And toponym Ukraine was documented during the existence of the state of Rus at least 6 times - in the 12-13th century. All recalls of Ukraine in the annals of that time refer exclusively to the territory of present-day Ukraine - its central and western lands
 
Oct 2013
14,071
Europix
- the document title includes Ukraine, North Caucasus and Western Oblast - that means Western region of RSFSR (Russia) including Smolensk and Bryansk gubernia etc.

And when you read the text of the document, you will find no Western Oblast in it. The document appeared at the height of the Holodomor campaign is only about Ukraine (USSR) and Kuban as part of the North Caucasus. In this text it is specified that:

- in the Kuban there are supporters of the former (Ukrainian) Kuban Rada, and in the Ukrainian SSR - Petliurists (supporters of the Ukrainian People's Republic of 1917-1919)

- that these supporters need to be ruthlessly punished - send them to the concentration camps or shoot them

- there is a hard point about "improper Ukrainization" - it is about Ukrainian culture and education

- there is a point about the immediate replacement of all office work in Ukrainianin Russian in the Kuban

- and there is a punt for the closure of all Ukrainian schools in the Kuban from the beginning of the 1933 academic year and the opening of Russian schools instead. Ukrainian schools in the Kuban at that time was more than 300.

So this is quite clear that the document is about Ukrainian part of Kuban, not the smaller part of Kuban that was Russian by ethnics - language, traditions and culture

But this, of course, did not in any way make the Holodomor and similar resolutions of CK VKP(b) anti-Ukrainian, is not it?
Dir, isn't somewhere a misunderstanding ?

I was referring to https://ru.m.wikisource.org/wiki/&#..._от_22.01.1933_№_65/ш (the link in Your post)

I didn't saw references to schooling there, only to population movements. Are we talking about the same directive ?
 
Dec 2017
787
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The first name of the first recognised separate state in Ukraine was Rus

Please remember this. And toponym Ukraine was documented during the existence of the state of Rus at least 6 times - in the 12-13th century. All recalls of Ukraine in the annals of that time refer exclusively to the territory of present-day Ukraine - its central and western lands
I remember this. I am very well aware that Rus had all attributes of a state. Modern Ukraine has root in Rus. I was just saying that 'na Ukraine' likely originated when Ukraine was not a separate state.
 
Dec 2017
787
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Are Rusyns Ukrainians ?
In Slovakia, Poland, Russia , Serbia, Hungary and other countries including Rusyns themselves they are not Ukrainians. For Ukrainians Rusyns are Ukrainians. This hypocrisy of Ukrainians. They complained for many years saying Russians assimilate them wanting Ukrainians to become Russians. Then, they turned around doing exactly the same to Rusyns.
 
Nov 2015
1,741
Kyiv
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Are Rusyns Ukrainians ?
The ethnonym Rusyn was first recorded in the 9th century in the Tale of Bygone Years - the major Chronicle of Rus. In the contract of the Kiev prince Igor with the Greeks (Byzantium) under the date of 912.

а ще кто оубиеть христьянина Русинъ или христианин Русина да оумреть
- if Rusyn kills a Christian (the Greek of Bysantia - Dir) or a Christian (kills) Rusyn - he will die

Rus is used there as an ethnonym - in other documents of Rus - both as a country and ethnonim. And Rusyn is an individual representative of the people Rus.

Further, the term Rusyn is mentioned in Ruska Pravda (11th-12th century) - the judicial code of Rus. In it, Rusyn, a resident of Rus, is contrasted with Slovene, a resident of Novgorod.

Ethnonym Rus (русь) was used in Ukraine as the main self-designation for its inhabitants up to the 17th century inclusive (see Lviv Chronicle). Later it was extruded by the ethnonym Rusyny (русины, a plural form from Rusyn), and this was the main self-name of Ukrainians until the second half of the 19th century. As far as the settlement of ethnic Russians in Ukraine Rusyns ​​began to call themselves Ukrainians. This happened gradually. And in those places where the Russians came later (eg in Transcarpathia since 1944) some local Ukrainians call themselves by the old ethnonym Rusyny (Rusyns) to this day. In those countries where the Russians did not settle many local Ukrainians still call themselves this ethnonym - Rusyns.

For the first time ethnonym Ukrainians is mentioned in the Ipatiev Chronicle under 1268 in the version of the украиняне (Ukrainyane). Another time it documented in the 17th century in the list of students of the University of Padua who came from Ukraine. In the 19th century the ethnonym Ukrainians began to supplant the ethnonym Rusyns in most of the territory of Ukraine as a self-name of the ethnos. Longer it was preserved in Galicia which until 1939 was not part of Russia, and in Transcarpathia.

I heard from local people in Prykarpattya (the western part of Ukraine on the eastern slopes of the Carpathians adjacent to Transcarpathia) - we are Ukrainians here, and we are also Rusyns and Lemkis.

I know those people well since my sister's husband was from those places she had a big wedding there, and then I went there many times.

As for the Transcarpathian Ukrainians, some of whom (according to the 2001 census - about 10 thousand) still call themselves Rusyns - I do not see any significant differences in them from the Carpathian Ukrainians - neither in language, nor in tradition, nor in appearance, nor national dress.

I do not think that there are sufficient grounds for singling out those people who call themselves Rusyns into an ethnos separate from the Ukrainians. Movement of the Transcarpathian Rusyns as a separatist from Ukraine after 2004 was generously sponsored by Russia.
 
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Nov 2015
1,741
Kyiv
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Are Rusyns and Ruthenians identical ?
- it all depends on the context. Ruthenian - this was a Latin ethnonym for all residents of the former state of Rus in a broad sense. At the same time Rutenian - so recorded their own ethnicity most of Ukrainian students in universities in Western Europe, where they studied since the 14th century.

Simply put - all Rusyns were written in Latin as Ruthenians. And Ruthenians in European documents in Latin were called not only Rusyns, but sometimes Russians (along with the ethnonym Muskovites).
 
Dec 2017
787
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The ethnonym Rusyn was first recorded in the 9th century in the Tale of Bygone Years - the major Chronicle of Rus. In the contract of the Kiev prince Igor with the Greeks (Byzantium) under the date of 912
The Tale of Bygone Years was written around 1113 by monk Nestor. In the 12th century. Not in the 9th century.
 

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