The Holodomor - man made famine in Ukraine

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Closed
Mar 2012
1,576
City of Angels
#1
Do you have any objective thoughts on this massive famine, often blamed on Soviet industrialisation, which possibly killed even more people than the holocaust?

Most western countries officially recognise the Holodomor as an act of genocide. The Russian Federation accepts historic information about the Holodomor but rejects the argument that it was ethnic genocide by pointing out the fact that millions of non-Ukrainian Soviet citizens also died because of the famine. On 2 April 2008, a statement was voted by the Russian parliament stating there was no evidence that the 1933 famine was an act of genocide specifically against the Ukrainian people. This was in response to the 2006 Ukrainian parliament declaration that the Holodomor was an act of genocide by the Soviet authorities against the Ukrainian people.

The Holodomor was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR between 1932 and 1933. During the famine, which is also known as the "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" and "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine",[3][4][5] millions of Ukrainians died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[6]

The estimates of the death toll by scholars varied greatly. Recent research has narrowed the estimates to between 1.8[7] and 7.5[8] million, with modern consensus for a likely total of 3–3.5 million.[citation needed] According to the decision of Kyiv Appellation Court, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million famine deaths, and as 6.1 million birth deficit.[9]

Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[6][10][11][12] Some scholars and politicians using the word Holodomor emphasize the man-made aspects of the famine, arguing that it was genocide; some consider the resultant loss of life comparable to the Holocaust.[13] They argue that the Soviet policies were an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide.[14][15][16][17][18] Other scholars argue that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialisation.

The famine remains a politically charged topic; hence, heated debates are likely to continue for a long time. Until around 1990, the debates were largely between the so-called "denial camp" who refused to recognise the very existence of the famine or stated that it was caused by natural reasons (such as a poor harvest), scholars who accepted reports of famine but saw it as a policy blunder[108] followed by the botched relief effort, and scholars who alleged that it was intentional and specifically anti-Ukrainian or even an act of genocide against the Ukrainians as a nation.
 

avon

Forum Staff
May 2008
14,253
#3
Do you have any objective thoughts on this massive famine, often blamed on Soviet industrialisation, which possibly killed even more people than the holocaust?

Most western countries officially recognise the Holodomor as an act of genocide. The Russian Federation accepts historic information about the Holodomor but rejects the argument that it was ethnic genocide by pointing out the fact that millions of non-Ukrainian Soviet citizens also died because of the famine. On 2 April 2008, a statement was voted by the Russian parliament stating there was no evidence that the 1933 famine was an act of genocide specifically against the Ukrainian people. This was in response to the 2006 Ukrainian parliament declaration that the Holodomor was an act of genocide by the Soviet authorities against the Ukrainian people.

The Holodomor was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR between 1932 and 1933. During the famine, which is also known as the "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" and "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine",[3][4][5] millions of Ukrainians died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[6]

The estimates of the death toll by scholars varied greatly. Recent research has narrowed the estimates to between 1.8[7] and 7.5[8] million, with modern consensus for a likely total of 3–3.5 million.[citation needed] According to the decision of Kyiv Appellation Court, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million famine deaths, and as 6.1 million birth deficit.[9]

Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[6][10][11][12] Some scholars and politicians using the word Holodomor emphasize the man-made aspects of the famine, arguing that it was genocide; some consider the resultant loss of life comparable to the Holocaust.[13] They argue that the Soviet policies were an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide.[14][15][16][17][18] Other scholars argue that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialisation.

The famine remains a politically charged topic; hence, heated debates are likely to continue for a long time. Until around 1990, the debates were largely between the so-called "denial camp" who refused to recognise the very existence of the famine or stated that it was caused by natural reasons (such as a poor harvest), scholars who accepted reports of famine but saw it as a policy blunder[108] followed by the botched relief effort, and scholars who alleged that it was intentional and specifically anti-Ukrainian or even an act of genocide against the Ukrainians as a nation.
This text needs to be cited.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor]Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Jan 2013
215
Nürnberg, Germany
#4
As far as I know (from the storries of ukrainian reffugies in the midd '30th and perhaps undercover agents) the authorities in Romania or Poland said that was about 5 mil. people starved to death in the Ukraine in this time, but none in the rest of Europe took these for real!
What do you all say of that!
 
Mar 2012
1,576
City of Angels
#6
I've also read even some Nazi officials were concerned over the massive deaths and wanted to intervene, however were prevented from doing so by new chancellor Hitler.
 
Aug 2010
16,202
Welsh Marches
#7
That doesn't sound too probable, the Nazis regarded Ukrainians as being of inferior race, and Germany had no border with the Ukraine in any case.
 

Belloc

Ad Honorem
Mar 2010
5,418
USA
#8
That doesn't sound too probable, the Nazis regarded Ukrainians as being of inferior race, and Germany had no border with the Ukraine in any case.
Actually many German nationalists, including some Nazis, were very sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause. Part of it stemmed from the fact many served in the German army and Freikorps in Ukraine. Plus they had a common enemy with the Soviets.
 
Mar 2012
1,576
City of Angels
#9
They definitely had a common enemy in the Soviets as many Ukranians had opposed them in the Russian Revolution and sided with the Germans in WWI--no question Stalin had an axe to grind against the Ukrainians.

Anyway I'll have to find the exact correspondence, but yes from what I recall studying recently the Nazi ambassador to Ukraine pleaded with Hitler to help put a stop to the famine but was ultimately refused.
 
May 2012
817
In the Land of Russia where the Shadows lie
#10
the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[
Down with common sence,long live political mythes!

A man in a right mind should ask himself: what for Stalin should have killed the peasantry? It was not monolithic,you know,there were not only opponents of the Soviet system but also it's supporters.Why he should have killed on all sides?The history know the real man made famine - Bengal famine,organized by Cherchill in 1943.Here is everything clear:Indians for British were all alienate.And what was the reason for Soviet authorities to kill everybody including supporters?

The answer is clear : the Holodomor version is a clumsy forgery.

As a matter of fact the cause of the famine was a terrible drought,happened btw not only in Ukraine but in other regions,for example,in my little motherland in Volga region.Many families fleeing from hunger moved to other regions, authorities didn't stop them,the family of my grandfather moved to Baku where they spent three years.Here is a real truth about the famine of 1933 in the USSR.

I know that it is useless to argue,you do not need in truth ,you need in mythes.You neeed the myth of the terrible Soviet Union against wich background your own real unsavoury history will look soft and fluffy.
 
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