The Jesus-Pilate-Scene in Mk 15 - just an illogical Fairy Tale?

Nov 2016
969
Germany
#11
It will prove absolutely nothing on its own....
I said it could "shake the belief", not "destroy the belief". I find your edgy position on that issue quite curious. Are you allergic against detail work on the Pilate scene?

In fact you could actually prove that all of the gospels are fiction and that would still prove nothing regarding the existence of a "historical Jesus"
Strange argument, since the gospels are the only supposed eye-witness reports of the Jesus figure. There is no other supposed eye-witness source. If one shows them to be fictional, one has done all what is necessary. The Tacitus and Josephus stuff is pointless at any case, and even the more if the gospels are absurded.

So to argue for the fictionality of the gospels is the best way of arguing against the historicity of Jesus.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#12
It's a Greek tragedy and the characters in Mark are actors, Pilate is a manifestation
of the god, Apollo who attempts too crucify Barsabas ( Barnabas) , who reappears in the Book of Act as Barnabas/Barsabas, from Μαρσύας.

Μαρσύας
> βαρσύας, βαρσβας , Βαρσαβας, Βαρσαβας , Βαραβας.

The Gospel of Mark, is a reworking or meddling of Greek and Hebrew stories similar
too the Aeneid and Ovid, that's what Romans did back then, plagiarised and rewrote everything .
 
Nov 2016
969
Germany
#13
It's a Greek tragedy and the characters in Mark are actors, Pilate is a manifestation of the god, Apollo who attempts too crucify Barsabas ( Barnabas) , who reappears in the Book of Act as Barnabas/Barsabas, from Μαρσύας.

Μαρσύας
> βαρσύας, βαρσβας , Βαρσαβας, Βαρσαβας , Βαραβας.
Reminds me a bit of my mentioning in #9 of a hypothesis of mythicist John M. Robertson:

´Jesus´ is the historicized hero of an antique mystery play where the fate of a dying and rising god (similar to Dionysos or Mithras) was enacted in a symbolizing manner.

Could you diversify your hypothesis? Your intimations are interesting but need to be fleshed out.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#14
The only demigod in Greek mythology to die and resurrect is Dionysus and his death is lamented or mourned.

Tammuz is just a name-sake for Dionysus and he appears in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 8:14
behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

The word 'weeping' is Bakah ( Bacchus) and the women are weeping his death
and as nothing to do with the Sun, but the grapes or mulberries, that they tread
and bleed into a vat, then stored in Goat skin to ferment.

Mark 14:23
And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it, And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

They are shedding the blood from the grapes and it's water into Wine.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#16
The old myths at the time ceased to be inspiring or unifying. It's true they borrowed, but it was an improvement.
Romans borrowed everything from Greek culture, Philosophy, Rhetoric, History, Epic, Pantheon, Tragedy, art and architecture. Romans also assimilated the gods, they took the stories of Zeus from the Greeks and told them about Jove and myths and iconography of Aphrodite into Venus.

Does Italy have anything of there own?

 
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Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#17
:)
The only demigod in Greek mythology to die and resurrect is Dionysus and his death is lamented or mourned. 
Dionysus did not die


Tammuz is just a name-sake for Dionysus and he appears in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 8:14
behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

The word 'weeping' is Bakah ( Bacchus) and the women are weeping his death
and as nothing to do with the Sun, but the grapes or mulberries, that they tread
and bleed into a vat, then stored in Goat skin to ferment. 
Total nonsense, not true. Tanmmuz is not associated with grapes as you assert, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of thread.


Mark 14:23
And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it, And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

They are shedding the blood from the grapes and it's water into Wine.
Still has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, and water into wine nowhere show up in Mark. Wine is what they had with meals, and the connection between wine and blood is a logical one, both are liquid, both are red. But water into wine has no connection to tnhe passage.
 
Nov 2016
969
Germany
#19
Total nonsense, not true. Tanmmuz is not associated with grapes as you assert, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of thread.
I´m really sorry, but these are two errors in one sentence.

(1)
Tammuz is clearly associated with grapes, what is shown for example by the coincidence of the month Tammuz and the period of grape harvest. However I leave it to Magus to give further arguments.

(2)
Tammuz has much to do with the thread topic since he as a deity is the basic model of a resurrecting god, of which god Dionysos and the Jesus figure are only variations.

I give an overview on the historical context of the Tammuz figure:

Birth and death of the god of fertility were thought in the Ancient Near East in connection with the seasons - in autumn the vegetation dies, in spring it comes to life again. Therefore, the beginning of spring in the ANE was celebrated as the return of the fertility god to life. The myth about the heavenly goddess Inanna and her lover, the vegetation god Dumuzi (Sumer) and about Ishtar and Tammuz (the Akkadian and Babylonian versions of the two Sumerian deities) was the model for this idea. The prophet Ezekiel reports in Ez 8:14 that even at the door of the Jerusalem temple women sang and wept for the resurrection of the dead god Tammuz. In Phoenicia the goddess Astarte and the god Adonis and in Anatolia Kybele and Attys were the regional versions of Ishtar and Tammuz.

In particular the story about "Inanna's passage into the underworld" may have been a central element of oral Sumerian mythology in the 4th century BCE, since the main protagonists, the goddess Inanna and her lover, the vegetation god Dumuzi, were at the centre of the most important religious ritual: the "Sacred Marriage" of the king to the goddess Inanna, who was represented by a high priestess. This concrete sexual ritual served two correlating purposes:

(1) Securing the fertility of nature and

(2) legitimation of the king through union with the goddess.

This ritual most probably originated in Neolithic times (about the 7th millennium BCE), when the masculine bull cult was part of the cult of the Great Goddess and the sexual relationship between this anthropomorphic goddess and her son, symbolized as a bull, was the basis for the ritual of the "Sacred Marriage", which, in the context of Mesopotamian ruler legitimation, began in the 4th milliennium BCE at the latest, played a central role, e.g. in the 2nd and 1st millennium BCE, in the context of the Babylonian Akitu festival. The ritual was sexually staged by the king and the high priestess (= representative of the goddess) in the Zikkurat, the central Babylonian temple.

In Yahwism, in the course of a normative inversion, the masculine Yahweh assumed the role of the mighty goddess and Israel that of the beloved king. The relationship is naturally de-sexualized and spiritualized, but remains metaphorically in the marriage context. Just as the king is "the chosen one" of the loving goddess (mythologically sketched out in the Inanna and Dumuzi myths), so the people of Israel figures as "the chosen one", i.e. the "bride" of the loving Yahweh in the course of a gender inversion.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#20
:)
Dionysus did not die
Plutarch De esu carnium 1 7
. This doctrine, however, seems to be even older, for the stories told about the sufferings and dismemberment of Dionysus and the outrageous assaults of the Titans upon him, and their punishment and blasting by thunderbolt after they had tasted his blood - all this is a myth which in its inner meaning has to do with rebirth

Total nonsense, not true. Tammuz is not associated with grapes as you assert
The month of Tammuz is the month of the Grape Harvest and Grape-stomping

Rev 14:20
blood came out of the winepress
 

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