The Jesus-Pilate-Scene in Mk 15 - just an illogical Fairy Tale?

Mar 2018
41
USA
#51
What do you mean by there were no Christians at the time of the gospels? That there were no Christians when the gospels were written or that Jesus first followers cannot be called Christians? Again where is it written in the quote that Jesus was a Christian?
Its not and there were no Christians until after the gospels till Paul if you want to believe in the sequence of the NT (which I don't).
 
Mar 2018
41
USA
#52
They are plenty of sources, it is mentioned in Herodotus and Plato.

Plato Euthyd. 285d
Then Ctesippus said: I too, Socrates, am ready to offer myself to be skinned by the strangers even more, if they choose, than they are doing now, if my hide is not to end by being made into a wine-skin (Askon) , like that of Marsyas, but into the shape of virtue.

Apollodorus, Bibliothekei.4.2
He was flayed alive in a cave near Celaenae for his hubris to challenge a god. Apollo then nailed Marsyas' skin to a pine tree, near Lake Aulocrene (the Turkish Karakuyu Gölü), which Strabo noted was full of the reeds from which the pipes were fashioned.

Herodotus 7.26
The skin of Marsyas the Silenus also hangs there; the Phrygian story tells that it was flayed off him and hung up by Apollo
Supply links.
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#54
The conclusion can be made using the Torah, by reading Leviticus 16:22 that states that all the Sins are put onto a 'Goat' and that Goat shall wash way sins and the Hebrew
word for 'Goat' is שעיר/Σάτυρος, 'Satyr'

Leviticus 16:21
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live Satyr, and confess over him all the iniquities, Sins and transgressions putting them upon the head of the Satyr, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness

Leviticus 16:22
And the Satyr shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:26
And he that let go the Satyr for the scapegoat(ἄφεσιν) shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

-This is my analysis of Mark-

Mark : מלאכי (ἀγγέλου )
Mark 1:2 : Malachi 3:1

Malachi does not have a given name in the Greek , ב יד מלאכי = ἐν χειρὶ ἀγγέλου , His name is translated as a ἀγγέλου (Envoy), but can be a synonym of the name Mark (מלכ).

Malachi 3:1 announced that a "messenger shall prepare the way" and the book concludes in Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah"

John wore the Mantle of Elijah.
Mark 1:6 : τρίχας καμήλου ζώνην δερματίνην
2 Kings 1:8 : ζώνην δερματίνην
2 Kings 2:8 : μηλωτὴν

καμήλου (Camlet) from μήλου means sheepskin or any rough woolly skin including the woven-fabric
of a Goat, that was worn by Elijah and Esau, τρίχας (Trichas) is a common reading of שער (Se'ar) .

1 Kings 19:19 - Elijah cast his mantle(אדרת) on Elisha
Gen 25:33 - Esau cast his mantle(אדרת) on Jacob

Both characters at the Jordan.
2 Kings 2:6
And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan.

Mark 1:5
were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing(ἐξομολογούμενοι) their sins.

* βαπτίζει = בעת = ἔπνιγεν ( choking, stifling, stifling heat, rapid patter )
*βαπτ - βατ - בעת ( Bath )

Remission of Sins
Mark 1:4 - remission (ἄφεσις) of sins.

Lev 16:26
And he(Aaron) that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash(ἄφεσιν) his clothes and bathe his flesh in water,

ἄφεσις (Aphesis)
1. חֻפְשָׁה (huphshah) * Lev 19:20
2. חֹפֶשׁ (hophesh) * Woven fabric for horse riding, ἵππιος(Hippios) (Of a Horse)
3. ἄφεσις = דְּרוֹר (Derowr) * Eleutheria/Liberia, either a Sparrow, Dove , Ostrich or Owl

Since Elijah rode the horse-driven chariot, then his mantle as a fabric for horse-riding makes sense.

Cry
2 Kings 2:12 - And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father,
Mark 15:34 - Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God

Parting Clothes
2 Kings 2:12 - he took hold of his own clothes(ἱματίων ) and rent them in two(διέρρηξεν ) pieces.
Mark 15:24 - and they parted(διαμερίζω) his garments(ἱμάτιον)

Earthquake
Mat 28:2
- And, behold, there was a great Hurricane (σεισμός )
2 Kings 2:11 - Elijah went up by a whirlwind (συσσεισμῷ ) into heaven.

*συσσεισμῷ from σεισμός (Seisma) "Shaking"
.
The Greek word for Hurricane is καταιγίς suffixed αἰγίς "Goat-skin" and the Hebrew word is סַעַר (ca`ar) compare with שער (Sa`ar) "Goat-skin"
and this is explained in Songs 4:1

Songs 4:1 (Apocalypse)
Thy hair (שער) is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Elijah anoints the Scapegoat

Kings 19:15
And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and anoint Hazael (Αζαηλ)

Leviticus 16:10
and to let him go for a scapegoat(Αζαηλ) into the wilderness.

Mark 1:3
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord

Act 9:3 - Elijah in Damascus
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven
 
Jun 2012
7,033
Malaysia
#55
Note, when we say crowds, that is a relative term. A crowd could be 30 people at your house party, or 30,000 at football game, both would be a crowd. Jesus might have 5,000 perhaps 10,000 screaming followers as he entered Jersualem, which could seem like a lot, but there were probably 200,000 in Jerusalem for Passover. 10,000 thousand would be enough to concern Roman and Jewish officials, but not necessarily cause them to panic.
Not sure if those kinds of numbers are realistic. Guys tend to be so easily carried away with numbers. We're talking about a time two millennia ago. So called 'cities' wud hv been 500 times smaller than today's, at most. Jerusalem not excluded. So wud hv been their populations.

A rally of 10,000 people wud be big for a mid-sized town of today. My own home town, capital of my home state, only had a population of about 40,000, when I was studying my geography textbook for junior high school exams at 15years old. A rally of 200 people wud hv been a concern in 30 AD Jerusalem.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2018
41
USA
#56
They are plenty of sources, it is mentioned in Herodotus and Plato.

Plato Euthyd. 285d
Then Ctesippus said: I too, Socrates, am ready to offer myself to be skinned by the strangers even more, if they choose, than they are doing now, if my hide is not to end by being made into a wine-skin (Askon) , like that of Marsyas, but into the shape of virtue.

Apollodorus, Bibliothekei.4.2
He was flayed alive in a cave near Celaenae for his hubris to challenge a god. Apollo then nailed Marsyas' skin to a pine tree, near Lake Aulocrene (the Turkish Karakuyu Gölü), which Strabo noted was full of the reeds from which the pipes were fashioned.

Herodotus 7.26
The skin of Marsyas the Silenus also hangs there; the Phrygian story tells that it was flayed off him and hung up by Apollo
Flaying - Wikipedia

The first scene I think is talking about sacrificing oneself to maintain virtue.
 
Mar 2018
41
USA
#57
The conclusion can be made using the Torah, by reading Leviticus 16:22 that states that all the Sins are put onto a 'Goat' and that Goat shall wash way sins and the Hebrew
word for 'Goat' is שעיר/Σάτυρος, 'Satyr'




-This is my analysis of Mark-

Mark : מלאכי (ἀγγέλου )
Mark 1:2 : Malachi 3:1

Malachi does not have a given name in the Greek , ב יד מלאכי = ἐν χειρὶ ἀγγέλου , His name is translated as a ἀγγέλου (Envoy), but can be a synonym of the name Mark (מלכ).

Malachi 3:1 announced that a "messenger shall prepare the way" and the book concludes in Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah"

John wore the Mantle of Elijah.
Mark 1:6 : τρίχας καμήλου ζώνην δερματίνην
2 Kings 1:8 : ζώνην δερματίνην
2 Kings 2:8 : μηλωτὴν

καμήλου (Camlet) from μήλου means sheepskin or any rough woolly skin including the woven-fabric
of a Goat, that was worn by Elijah and Esau, τρίχας (Trichas) is a common reading of שער (Se'ar) .

1 Kings 19:19 - Elijah cast his mantle(אדרת) on Elisha
Gen 25:33 - Esau cast his mantle(אדרת) on Jacob

Both characters at the Jordan.
2 Kings 2:6
And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan.

Mark 1:5
were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing(ἐξομολογούμενοι) their sins.

* βαπτίζει = בעת = ἔπνιγεν ( choking, stifling, stifling heat, rapid patter )
*βαπτ - βατ - בעת ( Bath )

Remission of Sins
Mark 1:4 - remission (ἄφεσις) of sins.

Lev 16:26
And he(Aaron) that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash(ἄφεσιν) his clothes and bathe his flesh in water,

ἄφεσις (Aphesis)
1. חֻפְשָׁה (huphshah) * Lev 19:20
2. חֹפֶשׁ (hophesh) * Woven fabric for horse riding, ἵππιος(Hippios) (Of a Horse)
3. ἄφεσις = דְּרוֹר (Derowr) * Eleutheria/Liberia, either a Sparrow, Dove , Ostrich or Owl

Since Elijah rode the horse-driven chariot, then his mantle as a fabric for horse-riding makes sense.

Cry
2 Kings 2:12 - And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father,
Mark 15:34 - Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God

Parting Clothes
2 Kings 2:12 - he took hold of his own clothes(ἱματίων ) and rent them in two(διέρρηξεν ) pieces.
Mark 15:24 - and they parted(διαμερίζω) his garments(ἱμάτιον)

Earthquake
Mat 28:2
- And, behold, there was a great Hurricane (σεισμός )
2 Kings 2:11 - Elijah went up by a whirlwind (συσσεισμῷ ) into heaven.

*συσσεισμῷ from σεισμός (Seisma) "Shaking"
.
The Greek word for Hurricane is καταιγίς suffixed αἰγίς "Goat-skin" and the Hebrew word is סַעַר (ca`ar) compare with שער (Sa`ar) "Goat-skin"
and this is explained in Songs 4:1

Songs 4:1 (Apocalypse)
Thy hair (שער) is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Elijah anoints the Scapegoat

Kings 19:15
And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and anoint Hazael (Αζαηλ)

Leviticus 16:10
and to let him go for a scapegoat(Αζαηλ) into the wilderness.

Mark 1:3
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord

Act 9:3 - Elijah in Damascus
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven
So you believe in the reincarnation version of the story , John is Elijah, and Jesus is Elisha? (I do not believe in prophecy, I believe the writers knew what they were doing and they were retelling a tradition, if Jesus is meant to be Elisha and I'm not sure that is so)

Also I am aware of the story of the scapegoat and according to the NT Jesus is the scapegoat.
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#58
So you believe in the reincarnation version of the story , John is Elijah, and Jesus is Elisha? (I do not believe in prophecy, I believe the writers knew what they were doing and they were retelling a tradition, if Jesus is meant to be Elisha and I'm not sure that is so)

Also I am aware of the story of the scapegoat and according to the NT Jesus is the scapegoat.
The OT as chronology problems, so towards the end of Malachi, the last book of the OT, Malachi 4:5 reads 'Behold, I will send you Elijah , as if the author of Malachi was unaware Elijah
already appears in the two books of Kings, I did investigate the origin of the Elijah story and i believe it's Greek, the Septuagint version reads Elijah as Helios, also the Bible describes
Elijah as a 'Tishbite', that as no meaning in Hebrew, but according to Yahuda, the word came from Thespis, which means 'To be an actor, or involved in a play' .
Thespis - Wikipedia

The story of Elijah is based on Spartan geography, Here are some of my investigations.

1Ki 18:42
So Ahab went up to eat and to drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees.

Ahab, is identical to the Spartan name, Agis and Elijah (Helios) is also associated with Mount Taygetus in Peloponnese, the departure point of the mountain is called Kardamili (Καρδαμύλη). Gorge of Rintomo (Jordan/Eridanus) starts from the ridges of Taygetos, It runs from the foot of Profitis Ilias (the highest mountain of the Taygetus range) to Kardamyli. In Summer it remains bone dry, however in winter it is known to flood spectacularly . Pausanias calls the gorge, Choireios Napi ( Vale of the Pigs) - Magus

Choireios "place of the swine" (Mark 5:1)
חזירון > Gadarene , χοῖρος > Gerasene
* χοίρ > χγίρ > χζίρ(חזיר) > χδίρ - γδαρ - γαδαρα
The story of Elijah also described in OVID.

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 319 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
Phaethon, driving the chariot of the Helios, was struck down by the thunderbolt of Zeus , Phaethon, flames ravaging his auburn hair (capillo), falls headlong down, a streaming trail of light, as sometimes through the cloudless vault of night a star, though never falling, seems to fall. Eridanus receives him, far from home, in his wide waters half a world away. And bathes his burning face.

Capillo - Hair
Capella - Goat

2 Kings 2
11 - There appeared a chariot and Horse of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
13 - He took up also the mantle(Hair) of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14 - And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters

Αζαηλ - עֲזָאזֵל "Scapegoat" (Ἀλεξίκακος)
(Magus)
The type of story telling invented by Thesis is very similar to the story telling throughout the Bible, note the similarity between the Cart
of Thespis and the Ark of the Covenant (described as a cart)
 

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