The misunderstood great man — Neville Chamberlain's logic and wisdom in handling of Hitler's unbounded expansionism

Jan 2015
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Ontario, Canada
What protests did the Czechs put down violently?
There were multiple protests from 1919 to 1938. The most notable was the German worker's strike of 1919 which was put down violently.

There were also various protests in 1938. Most notably the one in Eger during the May Crisis which was also put down violently. It was followed by public outrage, a diplomatic crisis, loss of face for the Czechs. The Czechs then implemented mobilization and martial law which led to further demonstrations, including violent ones.
 

pugsville

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Oct 2010
8,321
There were multiple protests from 1919 to 1938. The most notable was the German worker's strike of 1919 which was put down violently.

There were also various protests in 1938. Most notably the one in Eger during the May Crisis which was also put down violently. It was followed by public outrage, a diplomatic crisis, loss of face for the Czechs. The Czechs then implemented mobilization and martial law which led to further demonstrations, including violent ones.
Sources?
 
Jan 2015
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The first incident was on May 4, 1919.
The main incident in 1938 happened on, I think, May 20 or May 21. During which 2 people were shot and 100 were wounded. The incident in May isn't usually mentioned at all, you have to dig really deep. But due to mobilization and martial law, as well as this incident the Sudeten Germans began to riot. Conflicts centered around Eger as it was the unofficial capital of the Sudetenland and a political hotbed.

Such as?

benes was willing to give EVERY concession the Sudten Germans were demanding. When one side says that they wil lnot accpet concession of every demand they made as being an acceptable solution your really have to question their good faith.

And that the Sudten germans were taken orders form Hitler who had no intenetion of peaceful resolution is not a fatcor at all.?
Benes was willing to concede when things didn't go his way. When Germany stepped in and when Britain, France, Hungary and Poland turned on him. By that point why would anyone concede? He didn't offer autonomy until September when war became inevitable.

What is more Benes did not offer the most important concession of them all... secession.

No intention of peaceful solution? That isn't true. The Germans weren't even willing to go to war until the May Crisis, which the Czechs started. Which was also a reason Britain and France dropped them. We can infer as much from Case Green.

And HItler was not actively promoting unrest and trouble there. Probelms with the Austrians and Czechs the actions of germnay and Hitler in developing and making these troubels as bad as possible should not be overlooked.
The unrest had existed since 1919. It was also becoming relevant again in 1938. What Hitler did was intervene and attempt to control the narrative so as to get support from the West. There was a brief lull in the 1920's due to the capable governance of Mazaryk as well as the economic boom. But in the 1930's the ethnic tensions returned (after 1930, around 1931 it started) and came to a head in 1938.

Not sure what you mean "problems with the Austrians and Czechs".

czech september.png

There was a news article in one of the big papers about the Czechs putting down protests violently. I couldn't find it but here is this one instead. Not quite the incident in May but it all started with Eger.
 

pugsville

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Oct 2010
8,321
The first incident was on May 4, 1919.
The main incident in 1938 happened on, I think, May 20 or May 21. During which 2 people were shot and 100 were wounded. The incident in May isn't usually mentioned at all, you have to dig really deep. But due to mobilization and martial law, as well as this incident the Sudeten Germans began to riot. Conflicts centered around Eger as it was the unofficial capital of the Sudetenland and a political hotbed.
.[/QUOTE
I asked for source this is not a source. More unsubstantiated claims.

I'm aware of a policemen shooting 2 men. But thats not planned governmenrt action.
 

pugsville

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Oct 2010
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Hitler uninterested in peaceful solution issuing orders to Heinlien adnd not negioating in good faith.



"In contrast, Nazi Germany did interfere heavily in the domestic politics of Czechoslovakia. This began with financial aid given to struggling Sudeten families. The German Legation in Prague became a channel for sums of money to be sent to Sudeten families and later the Sudeten German Party. Large sums of money were also sent to support Nazi newspapers and other political activities. In doing so, Hitler tried to undermine the state from within.142 As a result, the Czechoslovak government disbanded and prohibited any association or group which had a connection to Nazi Germany.143 This decline in the economic and political situation of the ethnic Germans in the 1930s resulted in a loss of faith in the Czechoslovak government and the German activist parties which were associated with it.144 This made the Sudeten Germans turn more and more to the negativists side and they became increasingly receptive to propaganda from the German Reich.145 In this period, the Sudeten German National Socialists secretly received financial aid from the German foreign ministry. Mainly because of this aid the Sudeten German Party (SDP), under Konrad Henlein, was able

to procure 1,2 million German votes, unifying two-thirds of the German community in 1933.146 Heinlein remained in contact with the Third Reich and put pressure on the Czech authorities for the Sudeten German areas to become autonomous.147

As Hitler’s foreign policy became more aggressive and the Czechoslovak government elected a new nationalist president Eduard Benes, tensions grew. The apprehension and imprisonment of all ethnic Germans who were connected to the Nazi Regime caused terror and anger among the Sudeten German population, as it appeared as they were being punished for being German.148 As these tensions grew, the meetings between Henlein and Hitler became more frequent. In a meeting between the two on March 28, 1938 Henlein was informed that Hitler was not only after Sudetenland, but also Czechoslovakia itself. It was the policy of Hitler to encourage the Sudeten Germans to create disturbances so an international intervention and conference was possible. The SDP helped rally the population and fed into their expectations.149

Konrad Henlein went on trips to London to speak with Chamberlain about the situation in Czechoslovakia. Henlein seemed a honest man to many, his claims of the dire situation were believed as well as his denial of contact with Nazi Germany.150 Hitler used Henlein to create a situation in which a political crisis occurred that would give him an excuse to invade Sudetenland. He eventually got a hold of the country as German diplomats and the SDP exaggerated the civil unrest.151 Both Chamberlain and Roosevelt believed that the Munich conference in 1939 would bring peace.152 Czechoslovakia was abandoned by its allies and taken apart by Germany, Poland and Hungary.153 The first stage of the transfer in march 1939 went very well, Nazi soldiers received an enthusiastic welcome and Nazi symbols lined the streets in ethnic German territories in Sudetenland. They were welcomed as liberators, however, this image that was put forward was also a staged propaganda event.154"





"The Volksdeutsche and victimhood Negotiating identity in published eyewitness accounts of the

German expulsion (1944-1948)
"


https://thesis.eur.nl/pub/34955/Roeleveld.pdf
 
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pugsville

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source for HItler being uninterested in [peace ful solution instructing Heinlein for untenable demands.

International Conflicts, 1816-2010: Militarized Interstate Dispute Narratives
By Douglas M. Gibler
page -263
"On 28 March 1938 Hitler met with the leader of the Sudeten Germans, Kornrad Heinlein, telling him to give a loist of demands to teh Czech government so untenable that it woul dprompt some kind of reaction"
 
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Jan 2015
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I asked for source this is not a source. More unsubstantiated claims.

I'm aware of a policemen shooting 2 men. But thats not planned governmenrt action.
It doesn't need to be sourced to be correct. Obviously the source exists, I just don't have it on me. There was a demonstration in Eger on May 20, 1938. Czech authorities suppressed it violently. It made the news. I can't find the article from the time. Which was part of a trend of suppressing Sudeten demonstrations which goes back to 1919. It generally isn't mentioned in books, like I said you need to dig deep and go to source material. There exists entire transcripts of what was aired on radio news at the time. It ought to be in one of those. The demonstration was organized at the behest of Henlein in Eger. Of course Eger was a center of political activity and a center for the Sudeten Germans.

How is that not a government action? They deliberately put down a protest using state violence.

source for HItler being uninterested in [peace ful solution instructing Heinlein for untenable demands.

International Conflicts, 1816-2010: Militarized Interstate Dispute Narratives
By Douglas M. Gibler
page -263
"On 28 March 1938 Hitler met with the leader of the Sudeten Germans, Kornrad Heinlein, telling him to give a loist of demands to teh Czech government so untenable that it woul dprompt some kind of reaction"
This doesn't address anything which I've said. For starters the Sudeten Germans wanted secession. But even following your logic, Benes didn't agree to all of the demands until September 4 when war was inevitable.

The Sudeten Germans had been acting of their own accord but began to request support from Germany since 1933. In 1935 they established a direct tie through financing from the German Foreign Office. It was in 1938 when Anschluss with Austria was accomplished that they developed a strategy of how to use German support to achieve their aims of secession from Czecho-Slovakia.

Henlein's demands were not intended to negotiate autonomy but to have the Czechs reject them and then use that as a pretext for secession. Which would normally be accepted by foreign governments and international opinion. There is no indication here at all that the aim is to have Germany invade Czecho-Slovakia. So the meeting between Hitler and Henlein happened on March 28 and Henlein's demands were made on April 24. Anyway the demands aren't that absurd but the Czechs would not accept them in any normal circumstance. The May Crisis started May 20, when the Czechs called for mobilization and martial law. By which time the Germans barely had time to do anything at all.

We know from the meeting of March 28 that Hitler was not in any hurry. Then we have the Case Green document in which Hitler specifically outlines "It is not my intention to smash Czecho-Slovakia by military action without provocation". And... "A sudden attack without convenient outward excuse and without adequate political justification cannot be considered in the present circumstances". Case Green was preemptive in nature and was not a plan to invade Czecho-Slovakia or annex their territory. The Germans didn't believe that they needed military force to acquire the Sudetenland. It was in essence intended to be resolved peacefully.

I'm just going to fall back on post #106 from here on out. As DC Watt put it "Hitler was as of yet not up to anything". DC Watt had already demonstrated that the Germans were not planning to go to war over the Sudetenland. This was in the 1970's for heaven's sake and is the accepted narrative by now. Something which a diverse cast such as AJP Taylor and Gerhard Weinberg could accept. AJP Taylor and DC Watt went even further and pointed out that the May Crisis was started by the Czechs and that the Germans made absolutely no threatening actions.

It amazes me that in 2016 Lisette Roeleveld could write a paper which is not only poorly researched but completely misses the historiography of the past 40 years. That last claim is absurd: "The first stage of the transfer in march 1939 went very well, Nazi soldiers received an enthusiastic welcome and Nazi symbols lined the streets in ethnic German territories in Sudetenland. They were welcomed as liberators, however, this image that was put forward was also a staged propaganda event". First of all the Munich Agreement was in September, and the occupation of the Sudetenland happened throughout October. It was a staged propaganda event? The Sudeten Germans which voted 80% in favor of secession and were being put under martial law and shot in some cases were not happy about the Wehrmacht marching into their territory???
Not to mention: "In a meeting between the two on March 28, 1938 Henlein was informed that Hitler was not only after Sudetenland, but also Czechoslovakia itself". This statement isn't true at all.

I keep having to reiterate the same points over and over. May Crisis, DC Watt, Case Green. They have not been addressed at all. We're having the exact same debate from pages ago.
 

pugsville

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Oct 2010
8,321
It doesn't need to be sourced to be correct. Obviously the source exists, I just don't have it on me. There was a demonstration in Eger on May 20, 1938. Czech authorities suppressed it violently. It made the news. I can't find the article from the time. Which was part of a trend of suppressing Sudeten demonstrations which goes back to 1919. It generally isn't mentioned in books, like I said you need to dig deep and go to source material. There exists entire transcripts of what was aired on radio news at the time. It ought to be in one of those. The
demonstration was organized at the behest of Henlein in Eger. Of course Eger was a center of political activity and a center for the Sudeten Germans.
.
unsubstainiated claims.

Sudeten "demonstrations" in 1919 where pronouncements of succession. Governmenst egenerally do not take that well.

I
How is that not a government action? They deliberately put down a protest using state violence.
One policeman panicking and firing is not organized amd ordered Government action. This event in no way substainates your claims of Government repression.


I
I keep having to reiterate the same points over and over. May Crisis, DC Watt, Case Green. They have not been addressed at all. We're having the exact same debate from pages ago.
unsubstantiated claims., until you bring something to substantiate your cliams it's just some cliams from some guy on the internet.

You have repeated made claims. If you cannot support them they well be judged accordingly..
 
Jan 2015
5,373
Ontario, Canada
unsubstainiated claims.

Sudeten "demonstrations" in 1919 where pronouncements of succession. Governmenst egenerally do not take that well.

One policeman panicking and firing is not organized amd ordered Government action. This event in no way substainates your claims of Government repression.

unsubstantiated claims., until you bring something to substantiate your cliams it's just some cliams from some guy on the internet.

You have repeated made claims. If you cannot support them they well be judged accordingly..
Like I said I can't find the source of the Eger demonstrations at the moment. No, 100 other people were wounded from state action.

I already substantiated my argument. The Case Green Document for starters, which I actually quoted no less. Then the writings of DC Watts, AJP Taylor and even Gerhard Weinberg which disproves claims about this being a plan by the Germans to invade. Their historiography in the 1970's also decidedly shifted the burden of the May Crisis away from the Germans onto the Czechs. Then the document for the March 28 meeting, which doesn't have Hitler saying he wants to grab all of Czecho-Slovakia. I've more than made my case, you've been going around in circles without addressing any of the key points.
 

pugsville

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Oct 2010
8,321
Like I said I can't find the source of the Eger demonstrations at the moment. No, 100 other people were wounded from state action.

I already substantiated my argument. The Case Green Document for starters, which I actually quoted no less. Then the writings of DC Watts, AJP Taylor and even Gerhard Weinberg which disproves claims about this being a plan by the Germans to invade. Their historiography in the 1970's also decidedly shifted the burden of the May Crisis away from the Germans onto the Czechs. Then the document for the March 28 meeting, which doesn't have Hitler saying he wants to grab all of Czecho-Slovakia. I've more than made my case, you've been going around in circles without addressing any of the key points.
You made claims about Czech government repression which you have provided nothing other than your say so.
 

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