The misunderstood great man — Neville Chamberlain's logic and wisdom in handling of Hitler's unbounded expansionism

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,684
I actually found the evidence from the following forum. The thread host listed a number of Polish books as bibliography. (though I am unable to check the claim since I don't know Polish and certainly could not find any Polish book in the region I live) Let me show his article here anyway.

Source : https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1960

In the wake of the Versailler Vertrag, many Germans found themselves living in Polish territory and ruled by Poles. Poland was highly hostile to Germany and especially the German minority which found itself dislocated, something that spawned from even before W.W.I but would reach its peak after the first World War.

The first Polish atrocities against Germans took place during the what is called “dritten polnischen Aufstands” (the ‘third Polish uprise’) in Upper Silesia in May and June 1921. (1)

On the fifteenth of May 1927 an anti-German pogrom took place in Rybnik. (2)

Starting from April/May 1939 regularly assaults started taking place, the atrocities were no longer sporadic but the increasing hate-feelings of the Poles started to show. Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”. (3)

Translated:

In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (meaning the Germans living in Poland) will escape alive.”

Also before the outbreak of war, the Poles constructed two concentration camps where the German population was to be brought too after being arrested, and, if we listen to the Polish media, annihilated. One was situated at Polowanie, the other one at Niemcow. (4)

The outbreak of the war on 1.9.39 between Germany and Poland was to seal the fate for a lot of Germans. The hunt against them began immediately, as planned by the Polish authorities. The main centre of outbreak of these pogroms was the city of Bromberg, where German inhabitans were slaughtered like beasts. This day is known in German history as “Bromberger Blutsonntag” (5). Lodz, the Polish corridor and Ostpreußen were also the background of Polish deportations and atrocities.

Deportations started with lists of all German residents who were to be arrested and deported. These lists had been long prepared. Officially, the ground on which these people were arrested and deported concluded ‘espionage’ or ‘subversive activity’. The arrested civilians were brought to Eastern-Poland on foot-marches. Those, who could not follow, were struck dead. Of the 700 arrested Germans from Obornik, 231 were killed during the march (6). The perpetrators of these acts were Polish policemen and paramilitary youth-units.

The Ukrainian minority in Poland also suffered from these attacks by Poles. (7)

Poland now admits that these atrocities took place, and the government has come up with the number of 3.841 casualties. German sources, however, established a total of 5.490 deaths and missing people, with hints that the total number is likely to be over 6.000. (8)

=========================

1. “Die Geschichte der polnischen Nation 1918-1978”, Hans Roos, p. 180.
2. Alfred Bohmann, “Menschen und Grenzen”, p. 38.
3. Peter Aurich, “Der deutsch-polnische September 1939”, p. 48, Theodor Bierschenk, “Die deutsche Volksgruppe in Polen 1934-1939” p. 319
4. Zayas, Alfred M. de/Rabus, Walter: “Die Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle” p. 249
5. Mühlfenzl, Rudolf, “Geflohen und vertrieben”, p. 36
6. Nawratil, Heinz, “Schwarzbuch der Vertreibung 1945-1948”, p. 43-52
7. Ibid. op. cit.: de Zayas
8. Zayas/Rabus, p. 244 (an estimated 4000-5000 casualties) op.cit.: Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle + Schubert, Günter: ‘Das Unternehmen "Bromberger Blutsonntag" ‘, p. 199.


=========================

Obviously, violence, racism and discrimination were not the patent of Nazi Germany. The only difference was the latter make them much horrifying with magnitude in scale.
Your source is some guy on the internet?

Really? Really?
 
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
No, but it needs to be sourced for others to be able to decide whether the claim can be trusted
Well yeah but I don't have the source on me. pugsville is dismissing my argument because I don't have the source for a particular incident. When that is unnecessary given the rest of my arguments.

There are more than that in May, in Eger, my Lord Oda. Not all demonstrations were repressed by Czechoslovakian government, not all agressions were Czechoslovakian police's doing.

It might be interesting to look into this too:

Mutige Warnung vor Nazis

(it's in German, but I looked at the G-translate version, ans it's totally readeble)
Most of the sources are written in German or Czech. However they did broadcasts about this event at the time in Britain and America. There are transcripts of these radio broadcasts. I don't have them on me though.

There were multiple demonstrations in the Sudetenland from about April or May to September. The hot spots of political activity being Eger and Reichenberg (Liberec). Also counter protests by Czechs, the Prague demonstrations were absolutely massive. One amusing incident involved German NatSoc fighting Czech Fascists. But it was really the incidents in May, the missteps in Eger in particular, which led to the Germans dominating the narrative. It decidedly turned Western opinions against the Czechs. It also changed policy on both sides with regards to Sudeten Anschluss. Demonstrations became more violent and German-Czech relations became irreparable.

But this goes to show that the issues between German minorities and the Czechs predate the Third Reich. It is just that they didn't become active until about 1931, the first time it was brought up openly, and then after 1933 when Hitler came into power and the Sudeten Germans found an outlet. Many incidents in September would correctly be labelled partisan warfare.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,684
@redcoat
See this is what I mean.
A multi-layered argument in which Tokugawa did in fact cite Polish sources is reduced to a simple statement. My case is not any different.
You provided no source at all for the cliams of Czech repression. Tokugawa provided some guy posting on forum. (whose sources include Wehrmacht investigations during the war) And the forum post including nothing about the specific claim I questioned.

" The Warsaw government unrestrainedly connived at the Polish persecution of Germans in the Polish territories — there was a serial of six cases of Germans being brutally castrated by lynch. "

which is not mention at all in teh fourm post,

Lets be clear here I asked for sources for specific claims, you and Tokugawa have provided nothing at all to support these claims.

You spend a lot time with claims martyrdom and oppression rather than producing something to base your claims on.

I mean the sheer of injustice of having to talk about history in some sort of fact based way. truly oppresive.
 
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
You provided no source at all for the cliams of Czech repression. Tokugawa provided some guy posting on forum. (whose sources include Wehrmacht investigations during the war) And the forum post including nothing about the specific claim I questioned.

" The Warsaw government unrestrainedly connived at the Polish persecution of Germans in the Polish territories — there was a serial of six cases of Germans being brutally castrated by lynch. "

which is not mention at all in teh fourm post,

Lets be clear here I asked for sources for specific claims, you and Tokugawa have provided nothing at all to support these claims.

You spend a lot time with claims martyrdom and oppression rather than producing something to base your claims on.

I mean the sheer of injustice of having to talk about history in some sort of fact based way. truly oppresive.
He did give a source. This book here, pg 199:
https://www.amazon.de/Die-Wehrmacht...iierte-Volkerrechtsverletzungen/dp/3800408805

This is from these authors other book published in 1990.
1552613625628.png
"...it is claimed in Western Poland some 5000, perhaps 6000 casualties as victims in the whole country,"

talk about history in some sort of fact based way
This is exactly what I was referring to. Just because the source isn't shown that doesn't actually mean that the claim is not factual.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,684
He did give a source. This book here, pg 199:
https://www.amazon.de/Die-Wehrmacht...iierte-Volkerrechtsverletzungen/dp/3800408805

This is from these authors other book published in 1990.
View attachment 16177
"...it is claimed in Western Poland some 5000, perhaps 6000 casualties as victims in the whole country,"
(a) the source is based on Wehrmacht investigation during the war., sure it's published commentary, but it's not a source that selected quotes from , I'm going to accept that easily. You can see have a german army investigation during the war could be resonably be seem as a source that is bnot gpoing to be without bais?

(b) the source quotes deaths after the start of hostilities which is outisde the extent of what we are docussing

(c) I asked for a source for a specific claim.

this source and others provided make no reference to support that actual claim I was questioning.

"he Warsaw government unrestrainedly connived at the Polish persecution of Germans in the Polish territories — there was a serial of six cases of Germans being brutally castrated by lynch. "

this is the exact thing I was questioning and asking for a source fo r, nothing has been provided which addressing this specific claim.

This is the second time I had to repeat this.


This is exactly what I was referring to. Just because the source isn't shown that doesn't actually mean that the claim is not factual.
But how can we have any sort of reaonable debate without some verification or factual basis for claims.
Don't you think to have reasonable debate that people should be about question claims and ask for some sort of supporting evidence?

I really don;t understand what you are saying? Are you objecting to posters being asked to provide evidence for cliams? You think debate on this forum would be better if all claims were accepted as fact?

You seem to be objecting to examination of evidence about cliams in principle, like you don't like factual approach to history. Surely this cannot be right. If we just accpet all cliams without examiniation debat eis going be clelalry going nowhere, I;ve been wrong abut lots of stuff. Getting supporting evdience and osurces is frustrating and time consuming, I'm well aware of that. Howver if debat eon this fourm is going to worthwhile, surley it's not unreaosnable for peorple who make claims being asked to provide evidence/sources to support these claims?
 
Likes: redcoat
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
You're saying that the claim is untrue because you don't have the source. But that is not how evidence nor reality works. At best you can merely say that you do not have the evidence.

I know it wasn't the specific claim you were asking about. But I used that one as an example.

Not sure about how many died before the start of the war. But we can be sure that it already was happening if we merely followed the chronology of these events. At best there are about 5,000 confirmed but it is possible that there surpassed 6,000 casualties total.
With regards to the claims being made the Germans exaggerated 50,000 casualties. The number of 5,000 is obviously not propaganda, based on that fact alone.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,684
You're saying that the claim is untrue because you don't have the source. But that is not how evidence nor reality works. At best you can merely say that you do not have the evidence.
No, the burden of proof is upon those making cliams. Claims without eveidence should be viewed skeptically.

I know it wasn't the specific claim you were asking about. But I used that one as an example.
Well do not pretend for a second that any source has been provided for the stuff I actually questioned. I asked for sources of specific instances.

Not sure about how many died before the start of the war. But we can be sure that it already was happening if we merely followed the chronology of these events.
A totally unfounded assumption. War and peace are different. We can only be sure of something if there is very good evidence.

At best there are about 5,000 confirmed but it is possible that there surpassed 6,000 casualties total.
With regards to the claims being made the Germans exaggerated 50,000 casualties. The number of 5,000 is obviously not propaganda, based on that fact alone.
The 5,000 figure comes from the Germans. The Germany amry, in report produced about allied attrictiices, during the Nazi Regeime, so it's objectivity is subject to question. Just because some other part of the regime was making cliams of 50,000 does not make the claim of 5,000 any more accurate. (though it may well be). If you are going to quote a source could at least faimialrise yourself with it?
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,670
Stockport Cheshire UK
@redcoat
See this is what I mean.
A multi-layered argument in which Tokugawa did in fact cite Polish sources is reduced to a simple statement. My case is not any different.
Actually, all l have seen from you in sources is Nazi propaganda articles. His dismissal of these sources without any back up from reputable sites is well founded.
As for known atrocities against ethnic Germans which did take place the only one that I have been able to find is an incident which took place after war had broken out at a place called Bydgoszcz where at most 400 were killed.
It was this incident which was the basis for the initial propaganda claim of 5.800 ethnic German deaths, which was later increased to 58,000 in a propaganda report published in 1940.
I have found no reputable source which states that mass killing of ethnic Germans took place in Poland before war broke out.
Bloody Sunday (1939) - Wikipedia
 
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Likes: Rodger

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,670
Stockport Cheshire UK
Not sure about how many died before the start of the war. But we can be sure that it already was happening if we merely followed the chronology of these events. At best there are about 5,000 confirmed but it is possible that there surpassed 6,000 casualties total.
With regards to the claims being made the Germans exaggerated 50,000 casualties. The number of 5,000 is obviously not propaganda, based on that fact alone.
So you are basically claiming that the Poles must have killed at least 5,000 because that is the least of the Nazi claims used to justify their invasion.
This places a level of trust in Nazi propaganda that is at best laughable and at worst disturbing
 

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