"The Moors civilized Europe" theory

Sep 2014
869
Texas
Well, of course the Romans contributed , especially with roads and bridges ! :) Thats their 'thing' .

Just because the Islamic 'golden age' made a contribution does not negate any other influence, before, during or after .

Thats why I laugh at the idea that the 'Moors bought civilization to Europe' .

To be really simplistic here ; Roman world bought Roman stuff they where good at , Islam bought 'Islamic stuff' they where good at ( medicine, astronomy, etc ) ... and no, I am not saying the Romans never had medicine or astronomy .

It seems about 80% of responses I get, people have not read what I wrote correctly .

... I do realise it is an international forum, and some might not have English as first language thats why I often write it REAL simple like .

( Except that 80% contains a LOT of English as first language speakers , so other 'dynamics' are afoot ;) )
Are you saying there was no match or astronomy before the rise of Islam? Do the Magi and Zoroasters know this?
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,112
Australia
Seriously? Rome, Greece, Constantinople (including preIslamic Andalusia) existed. Seville was the most enlightened city in Spain before the Moors came along and moved in.If anything it was the other way around. The Moors were civilized by the Romans.
Ummmm yeah ... again people are not reading what I wrote .

I wasn't talking about who CIVILIZED Spain and i said the Moors did NOT 'civilize' Spain .

" The Province of Almeria was populated by Neolitic and Palaeolithic civilisations who left their traces in the Almanzora caves. "

Copyright of this text and more info at: Ancient Civilizations and Ancient Discoveries in Almeria, Spain Ancient Civilizations and Ancient Discoveries in Almeria, Spain

or all you had to do was look up Wikipedia :rolleyes:

" Before the Roman conquest t
he major cultures along the Mediterranean coast were the Iberians, the Celts in the interior and north-west, the Lusitanians in the west, and the Tartessians in the southwest. The seafaring Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Greeks successively established trading settlements along the eastern and southern coast. The first Greek colonies, such as Emporion (modern Ampurias), were founded along the northeast coast in the 9th century BC, leaving the south coast to the Phoenicians "

History of Spain - Wikipedia
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,112
Australia
Are you saying there was no match or astronomy before the rise of Islam? Do the Magi and Zoroasters know this?
Nope. At least this time you asked me what I said . And what I said was ... well, what I said ;

" Islam bought 'Islamic stuff' they where good at ( medicine, astronomy, etc ) ... and no, I am not saying the Romans never had medicine or astronomy ."

See even when I know a silly interpretation of what I write is imminent , and make it clear that is NOT what I am saying, even though I never said it (see the highlighted bit ) there is always someone that will react, read wrong, and make wrong assumptions about what I write .

If you could take in what I wrote, I alread mentioned the Magi and Zoroastrians under the 'Chaldean 'influence in the Alexandrian Synthesis . And the Greek and Egyptian 'astrology' also was incorporated into this .

What I was referring to was the CONTRIBUTION that Islam made towards the modern European science of astronomy

How Islamic scholarship birthed modern astronomy
 
Nov 2010
7,540
Cornwall
' Moorish Muslimy Mediterraneans', if you like ;)

:) .... I enjoyed making that link .

( History Channel .... Historum ... same sorta thing isnt it ?

:D ...
Seriously? Rome, Greece, Constantinople (including preIslamic Andalusia) existed. Seville was the most enlightened city in Spain before the Moors came along and moved in.If anything it was the other way around. The Moors were civilized by the Romans.
Well this is all the confusion isn't it?

If anything Moors equates to 'Mauri' or, very roughly, berber (of North Africa). Yet for some reason the English language - not the Spanish one - uses 'Moors' to equate to 'muslims living in the Iberian Peninsula - which absolutely baffles me, however I much I read, it makes no sense. Muslims in Spain had many different origins, largely Visigothic and Hispano-Roman. My suspicion is that the term originates from the castellano use of 'moro' for muslim (or indeed heathen)

The only safe way to describe muslim populations and rulers in Iberia is 'muslim'.

I think you'll find the richest, busiest, most populous province was La Betica under the Romans. Not sure about 'enlightened'!!
 
Oct 2015
5,179
Matosinhos Portugal
johnincornwall


My teacher at school taught the history of Portugal. First King of Portugal Dom Afonso Henriques conquered Leiria Lisbon etc. to the Moors who was from North Africa

Today the Portuguese of the north when their football clubs play with Benfica they call them Moors, it has to do with the history of Portugal I also say Moors to the Benfica club when playing with my club F.C.Porto
From there we are all Portuguese and united people.


A small country with a great national and international history.


Os Mouros vinham do Norte de Africa - The Moors came from North Africa
 
May 2019
26
Near East
The Muslims didn't civilize Europe from scratch, it's a stretch to say so. But their influence can't be underestimated either. It tells us enough that the words 'algebra' and 'alchemy' derive from Arabic, and that the ten digits 0, 1, 2, etc. are called the "Arabic numerals".
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
Well for me this kind of debate is just reverse eurocentrism, no one civilized no one. Civilization born, rose and die. And during that process they will influence and get influenced. But we can see a spectrum on influence also. That statement was used by colonialist many times in history to justify they acts or to glorify a fantasized past. You can be proud of your ancestors but don't downplay other by using them, and don't downplay people at all. The moors that influence Europe were who they were nothing else. People don't want it be judge on their ancestors fault but want to take credit for all their achievement isn't that a double standard. Do we talk on how the moor enslave many European, are people who claim that proud of that? Same for colonialism by westerners are you proud that Leopold 2 of Belgium kill millions of Congolese?
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
About the black moors. I will say what I know. It seems that the moors were a berber tribe who were known since antiquity time. I think they were the founder of the Mauretanie civilization in North West Africa. They were of course black among them since many Saharan population were of sub Saharan compound before it's extension. But it's likely that the moors themselves were more of a lybico-berbere phenotype at the beginning. So as I said they might be black people among the moor that arrived for different reason, slavery, trade and other sort of contact. That's the same for all berber kingdoms like Numidia, Garama... The sub Saharan compound become more important through time. Most of berber group have an spectrum phenotype that is more sub Saharan more you go to the south. Actually the moor, touareg and some berber group in the Saharan have an non negligible sub Saharan population
For the moors in Europe, they were part of the Almoravid. The Almoravid was a religious and political movement originated from west Africa.
The founder(dont have his name right now) gathered many berber tribe at that time around the eleventh century but not onlyhe also gathered many black population in the region for a same goal : a war Islamic movement to spread religion, it's even say that he was an ermit in actual northern Senegal. But at that time they were already Islam I that region in Africa and it says that the Trekuri king converted and help the movement a lot. Tekrur was a powerful state in west Africa and was in rivalry with the animist kingdom of Ghana. So when the movement started they clearly attacked Ghana and some of it cities. Some say that they invade that part but it's unlikely since Ghana didn't split exactly at that time, but was fading no doubt about that. In any case the Tekrur was part of the Almoravid empire which also mean that they were Tekruri population within the movement and other islamized black population in that region. It's even says that the Tekruri send an army of 4000 men during the Spain campaign of the Almoravid. They are record of many scholars and other person coming from Ghana and Tekrur in Spain. Ghana wasn't fully islamized but they were Muslim in Ghana.
So the black population among the Almoravid colonialist at that time was quite important and that why European maybe totally assimilated them with sub Saharan Africans. And following this history they were also the almohad movement during the same time that is link to kanembu, a powerful African sub Saharan state. Also Tekrur is the first known sub Saharan African state who fully adopt Islam and they really help and take a great part in the Almoravid movement. Last thing to give you an example on why the Almoravid are linked to west Africa : the third leader of the Almoravid was killed in the actual Senegal while fighting a pagan serere king in actual Senegal. Even so the European might have exaggerated the assimilation between black and moor.
I will ad this : Tekruri and berber in that region was poorly islamized before the Almoravid, there is an account of a Tekruri king who was consider ignorant of Islamic tradition and ritual while doing his pilgrimage to Mecca. And he said that he was the most eruidit of his kingdom. And one of the reason some king in Tekrur really wanted to fully islamized their land.

And yes clearly west Africa that doesn't mean that they were all black let me finish before typing your racist comment man 😀😉.
Just some context it's not afrocentric to say that many black(understand sub Saharan in the context it more easy) populated upper than today when the Sahara was less wide. You have the example of Dhar Tichitt. We don't know much how organize they were but they were at least cities of that kind. They also trade with the Numidia, Mauretania Garama and Carthage and also Phoenicians and possibly Rome. But it wasn't as important as the Saharan trade routes in the middle age. Many think that they were kingdom there which were the ancestor of later west sudanic power.

To go further, the wolof people in senegal say in their oral tradition that their mythic ancestor Ndiadiane Ndiaye is the son of abubakri(the third leader killed in Senegal) who had a Tekruri wife. But the serere oral tradition say that it's not true and since the wolof take most of their history oral tradition from the serere, their version seems to not be accurate and reflect a need to claim more Islamic link since the wolof today are 99% Muslim.
 
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Likes: specul8

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,369
Portugal
About the black moors. I will say what I know. It seems that the moors were a berber tribe who were known since antiquity time. I think they were the founder of the Mauretanie civilization in North West Africa. They were of course black among them since many Saharan population were of sub Saharan compound before it's extension. But it's likely that the moors themselves were more of a lybico-berbere phenotype at the beginning. So as I said they might be black people among the moor that arrived for different reason, slavery, trade and other sort of contact. That's the same for all berber kingdoms like Numidia, Garama... The sub Saharan compound become more important through time. Most of berber group have an spectrum phenotype that is more sub Saharan more you go to the south. Actually the moor, touareg and some berber group in the Saharan have an non negligible sub Saharan population

For the moors in Europe, they were part of the Almoravid. The Almoravid was a religious and political movement originated from west Africa.
The founder(dont have his name right now) gathered many berber tribe at that time around the eleventh century but not onlyhe also gathered many black population in the region for a same goal : a war Islamic movement to spread religion, it's even say that he was an ermit in actual northern Senegal. But at that time they were already Islam I that region in Africa and it says that the Trekuri king converted and help the movement a lot. Tekrur was a powerful state in west Africa and was in rivalry with the animist kingdom of Ghana. So when the movement started they clearly attacked Ghana and some of it cities. Some say that they invade that part but it's unlikely since Ghana didn't split exactly at that time, but was fading no doubt about that. In any case the Tekrur was part of the Almoravid empire which also mean that they were Tekruri population within the movement and other islamized black population in that region. It's even says that the Tekruri send an army of 4000 men during the Spain campaign of the Almoravid. They are record of many scholars and other person coming from Ghana and Tekrur in Spain. Ghana wasn't fully islamized but they were Muslim in Ghana.
So the black population among the Almoravid colonialist at that time was quite important and that why European maybe totally assimilated them with sub Saharan Africans. And following this history they were also the almohad movement during the same time that is link to kanembu, a powerful African sub Saharan state. Also Tekrur is the first known sub Saharan African state who fully adopt Islam and they really help and take a great part in the Almoravid movement. Last thing to give you an example on why the Almoravid are linked to west Africa : the third leader of the Almoravid was killed in the actual Senegal while fighting a pagan serere king in actual Senegal. Even so the European might have exaggerated the assimilation between black and moor.
I will ad this : Tekruri and berber in that region was poorly islamized before the Almoravid, there is an account of a Tekruri king who was consider ignorant of Islamic tradition and ritual while doing his pilgrimage to Mecca. And he said that he was the most eruidit of his kingdom. And one of the reason some king in Tekrur really wanted to fully islamized their land.

And yes clearly west Africa that doesn't mean that they were all black let me finish before typing your racist comment man 😀😉.
Just some context it's not afrocentric to say that many black(understand sub Saharan in the context it more easy) populated upper than today when the Sahara was less wide. You have the example of Dhar Tichitt. We don't k ow much how organize they were but they were at least cities of that kind. They also trade with the Numidia, Mauretania Garama and Carthage and also Phoenicians and possibly Rome. But it wasn't as important as the Saharan trade routes in the middle age. Many think that they were kingdom there which were the ancestor of later west sudanic region.
The kingdom of the Mauretania, from where the Mauri were, felt in the Roman hands in 44 AD. So since Roman times the Mauri were associated with that region that today belongs to Morocco and west Algeria.

As for Moors in Europe, you references to the movements of the Almoravid and the somewhat later Almohads is important, since at least the first had units with black warriors. But there were Moors in Europe since 711 AD, the first wave of Muslim armies that invaded the Iberian Peninsula was mostly made by Berbers.

Just a side note for the last paragraph: some centuries after this, the Portuguese, while exploring the west coast of Africa, established the “skin colour frontier”, if you allow me the expression, around the Senegal River. South of it there were the lands of the blacks; north of it there were mostly Berbers. This can be seen in the “Crónica do Descobrimento e da Conquista da Guiné”, by Zurara.
 

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