"The Moors civilized Europe" theory

May 2019
64
Afrique
The kingdom of the Mauretania, from where the Mauri were, felt in the Roman hands in 44 AD. So since Roman times the Mauri were associated with that region that today belongs to Morocco and west Algeria.

As for Moors in Europe, you references to the movements of the Almoravid and the somewhat later Almohads is important, since at least the first had units with black warriors. But there were Moors in Europe since 711 AD, the first wave of Muslim armies that invaded the Iberian Peninsula was mostly made by Berbers.

Just a side note for the last paragraph: some centuries after this, the Portuguese, while exploring the west coast of Africa, established the “skin colour frontier”, if you allow me the expression, around the Senegal River. South of it there were the lands of the blacks; north of it there were mostly Berbers. This can be seen in the “Crónica do Descobrimento e da Conquista da Guiné”, by Zurara.
Of course i didn't imply that there weren't other conquest before the almoravid movenemnt. I was just giving some context on the debate of the two extreme: there were no black among the so called moor and they were all black.
As for the location of the moors it's clearly said that they were moving from Senegal to Morocco. But you are right during the antiquity they were clearly in the northern cost, that's why I said north west. And yes the Sahara push most population way south. The Arab invasion is also a reason while some of them became islamized and were the first to conquest the Iberia peninsula, the rest go pretty far in the south.

For the Portugal thing I don't really get if it's a critics to my paragraph or you agree. I think that you seems to corroborate what I say : like black population were pushed to the south by the berber population due the climate change. The berber are more adapted in their style of life to the desert than the sub Saharan.
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
The kingdom of the Mauretania, from where the Mauri were, felt in the Roman hands in 44 AD. So since Roman times the Mauri were associated with that region that today belongs to Morocco and west Algeria.

As for Moors in Europe, you references to the movements of the Almoravid and the somewhat later Almohads is important, since at least the first had units with black warriors. But there were Moors in Europe since 711 AD, the first wave of Muslim armies that invaded the Iberian Peninsula was mostly made by Berbers.

Just a side note for the last paragraph: some centuries after this, the Portuguese, while exploring the west coast of Africa, established the “skin colour frontier”, if you allow me the expression, around the Senegal River. South of it there were the lands of the blacks; north of it there were mostly Berbers. This can be seen in the “Crónica do Descobrimento e da Conquista da Guiné”, by Zurara.
I didn't mean to imply that they were not other conquests in that region before the Almoravid movement.
As for the moors location they were north African in antiquity. But after the Islamic conquest they were migrated between Senegal and Morocco.
And yes they were a few or maybe no black before the Almoravid movement, they might be some blacks who were there since the Berber kingdom and their links with the hypothetic south the Saharan kingdom like Tichitt. But nothing that could surprise the Europeans. They are history of black Christian way before that like Saint Maurice pretty famous in Europe.
I will just add that European used the term moor since the first conquest in 711 AD.

And I will say this : it seems that in Africa the Berber move with the desert while sub Saharan move with the river.😀

Sorry didn't see that I already posted a reply, bug.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,369
Portugal
For the Portugal thing I don't really get if it's a critics to my paragraph or you agree. I think that you seems to corroborate what I say : like black population were pushed to the south by the berber population due the climate change. The berber are more adapted in their style of life to the desert than the sub Saharan.
Not particularly agreeing or disagreeing, I don’t know if you are right or wrong. I also don’t know much about the mentioned migrations of the Moors or of the Berbers pushing the black populations to South. What you said seems possible, but I don’t have enough information to debate it. I just tried to add some further information about the situation that the Portuguese found in the beginning of the 15th century.

They are history of black Christian way before that like Saint Maurice pretty famous in Europe.
I don’t know much about Saint Maurice but since in the legend is from Tebas (Egypt), I don’t think that is related with the Moors. There are iconographic representations of him both white and black.
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
Oh
Not particularly agreeing or disagreeing, I don’t know if you are right or wrong. I also don’t know much about the mentioned migrations of the Moors or of the Berbers pushing the black populations to South. What you said seems possible, but I don’t have enough information to debate it. I just tried to add some further information about the situation that the Portuguese found in the beginning of the 15th century.



I don’t know much about Saint Maurice but since in the legend is from Tebas (Egypt), I don’t think that is related with the Moors. There are iconographic representations of him both white and black.
Oh ok. Like I will find sources about that, but for what I know the cities like Dhar Tichitt were funded by soninke if I ma not wrong.

Because it's in his name Saint "Maur"ice, I don't have reliable sources if he was black or white but in most of his representation since the eleventh century he is depicred as a sub Saharan African due the assimilation between moor and sub Saharan. Funny that it happened around the eleventh century around the same time the Almoravid come to Europe. Causality or simple correlation ?
 
Mar 2019
52
Belgium
Everybody influenced each other, especially when we talk about Mediterranean world (that explain why so many civilization flourished in that area)

Apart the meso-American (the reason why they were so limited), no civilization built
I didn't mean to imply that they were not other conquests in that region before the Almoravid movement.
As for the moors location they were north African in antiquity. But after the Islamic conquest they were migrated between Senegal and Morocco.
And yes they were a few or maybe no black before the Almoravid movement, they might be some blacks who were there since the Berber kingdom and their links with the hypothetic south the Saharan kingdom like Tichitt. But nothing that could surprise the Europeans. They are history of black Christian way before that like Saint Maurice pretty famous in Europe.
I will just add that European used the term moor since the first conquest in 711 AD.

And I will say this : it seems that in Africa the Berber move with the desert while sub Saharan move with the river.😀

Sorry didn't see that I already posted a reply, bug.

The problem is that we don't see any blacks among moors in medieval spanish representations and other miniatures (apart in rare occasions and always in a position of submission). We can establish that black slaves were quite common into muslim societies since the VIII century. So yes, there were blacks among moors but mainly slaves. The word "moor" itself come from Mauretania, an ancient kingdom from the ancient time. But greeks and romans didn't note any black presence in North Africa. The blacks that ancient European encountered at these time came mostly from the eastern part of the African continent (Nubia, Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia).

An interesting point : the majority of black representations into the moorish-muslim world come from the paintings of the 19th century 🙂
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
Everybody influenced each other, especially when we talk about Mediterranean world (that explain why so many civilization flourished in that area)

Apart the meso-American (the reason why they were so limited), no civilization built



The problem is that we don't see any blacks among moors in medieval spanish representations and other miniatures (apart in rare occasions and always in a position of submission). We can establish that black slaves were quite common into muslim societies since the VIII century. So yes, there were blacks among moors but mainly slaves. The word "moor" itself come from Mauretania, an ancient kingdom from the ancient time. But greeks and romans didn't note any black presence in North Africa. The blacks that ancient European encountered at these time came mostly from the eastern part of the African continent (Nubia, Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia).

An interesting point : the majority of black representations into the moorish-muslim world come from the paintings of the 19th century 🙂
Don't k me but I trust you, it seems that through the time Europeans assimilated the term moor with sub Saharan. But ignoring everything I said about the Almoravid, Tekrur and their impact is not honest. Also the assimiliation of the word moor with sub Saharan African began around that time. Coincidence? I don't think so. But you know Saint Maurice right? The oldest representation of him as sub Saharan African is during the 12 century. Oh ? Right just after the Almoravid movement. Dann too much coincidence kill the coincidence. Also don't get me wrong I never say that the moor were all black or everything like that. Just say that they were a consequent population of sub Saharan African in the Islamic area during that time. Also don't mix up everything, the fact is that when Greek make a description of the Berber they give the most common phenotype and as I said during antiquity they were a lesser amount of sub Saharan Africans. But they a part of the population (can't give you a percentage) that were sub Saharan and that mixed with the local for different reason, slavery might be one of them. Never say that the north Africans were black. Dhar Tichitt wasn't known by The Greek as far as I know, but Numidia, Garama, Mauretania , Carthage and the Phoenician did have contact with them. Potentially the roman and if it happened it was pretty exceptional. And it's false to say that they didn't notice any black people I north Africa. Last but not least every black people was named Ethiopian by them they didn't know much about they originvmost of the time.
 
Mar 2019
52
Belgium
Don't k me but I trust you, it seems that through the time Europeans assimilated the term moor with sub Saharan. But ignoring everything I said about the Almoravid, Tekrur and their impact is not honest. Also the assimiliation of the word moor with sub Saharan African began around that time. Coincidence? I don't think so. But you know Saint Maurice right? The oldest representation of him as sub Saharan African is during the 12 century. Oh ? Right just after the Almoravid movement. Dann too much coincidence kill the coincidence. Also don't get me wrong I never say that the moor were all black or everything like that. Just say that they were a consequent population of sub Saharan African in the Islamic area during that time. Also don't mix up everything, the fact is that when Greek make a description of the Berber they give the most common phenotype and as I said during antiquity they were a lesser amount of sub Saharan Africans. But they a part of the population (can't give you a percentage) that were sub Saharan and that mixed with the local for different reason, slavery might be one of them. Never say that the north Africans were black. Dhar Tichitt wasn't known by The Greek as far as I know, but Numidia, Garama, Mauretania , Carthage and the Phoenician did have contact with them. Potentially the roman and if it happened it was pretty exceptional. And it's false to say that they didn't notice any black people I north Africa. Last but not least every black people was named Ethiopian by them they didn't know much about they originvmost of the time.

It''s only since the late 15th century that European used the term moor to describe someone with darker skin (before the term was used to describe a muslim North African only). But dark skin at this time didn't mean black but only someone with a skin tanner than those of the average European (following the context of course). The perception of the "moorish" skin was different depending on the perspectives (Italian, French , Spanish, English, German, Greek, ...).But generally the term used to describe blacks was negro, negritto, Ethiopian (more rare in the renaissance).

Take the example of Othello. He's not described as black African by Shakespear. In fact the concept of black Othello appeared for the first time in USA among black slaves during the 19th century. It's ironic, because in a society where the white skin (the white anglo saxon) was put on a pedestal, the term dark skin could only mean logically black (in the American mental scheme).



Moreover, the representation of black saint Maurice only exist in germanic countries. In France, Italy, Spain and Greece, saint Maurice is represented as white with a little tan skin.
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
It''s only since the late 15th century that European used the term moor to describe someone with darker skin (before the term was used to describe a muslim North African only). But dark skin at this time didn't mean black but only someone with a skin tanner than those of the average European (following the context of course). The perception of the "moorish" skin was different depending on the perspectives (Italian, French , Spanish, English, German, Greek, ...).But generally the term used to describe blacks was negro, negritto, Ethiopian (more rare in the renaissance).

Take the example of Othello. He's not described as black African by Shakespear. In fact the concept of black Othello appeared for the first time in USA among black slaves during the 19th century. It's ironic, because in a society where the white skin (the white anglo saxon) was put on a pedestal, the term dark skin could only mean logically black (in the American mental scheme).



Moreover, the representation of black saint Maurice only exist in germanic countries. In France, Italy, Spain and Greece, saint Maurice is represented as white with a little tan skin.
You are maybe enable to read, I say it began to the 12 century. Damn. And also, it not true that it was only use in Germany. He was a Saint for god sake don't be dumb. Sorry for that. But I don't think that you are willing to discuss so sorry man. My bad
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,112
Australia
Well this is all the confusion isn't it?

If anything Moors equates to 'Mauri' or, very roughly, berber (of North Africa). Yet for some reason the English language - not the Spanish one - uses 'Moors' to equate to 'muslims living in the Iberian Peninsula - which absolutely baffles me, however I much I read, it makes no sense. Muslims in Spain had many different origins, largely Visigothic and Hispano-Roman. My suspicion is that the term originates from the castellano use of 'moro' for muslim (or indeed heathen)

The only safe way to describe muslim populations and rulers in Iberia is 'muslim'.

I think you'll find the richest, busiest, most populous province was La Betica under the Romans. Not sure about 'enlightened'!!
Aha! Thank you. Now I understand where Phillipino 'Moro' fighters name comes from ( I did 'Sikiran' as a youth ) ... I did not know how the 'Moro' fitted in.

( They have very good 'footwork' by the way ;) )

The Moro footwork and the Sikaran- the footwork was developed for use when fighting with sword and shield

'flow training ' ;


Which probably explains the essence of 'brotherhood' they seem to have with each other .
 
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