"The Moors civilized Europe" theory

Aug 2014
1,249
pakistan
Not just a few. so many Moors were black that many Europeans began to refer to all Black Africans as Moors.
I dont think so. Any few shades darker people were "Moors" or "Negroes" for Europeans. In 18th and 19th century British sources, brown-skinned North Indians are referred to as Negroes and Blacks.
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
Sorry I've missed recent conversation. Moor = muslim btw so.....................

There are a number of references to the Almoravids use of black troops from the 'Curve of the Niger' aka the 3 rivers . Mina in his historia de Sevilla quotes that they were used as garrison troops there, because they did not speak arabic and Sevilla had a large proportion of non-muslim residents likely to corrupt garrison troops (in his words as I recall). He does suggest that there is remnant evidence of this in tiny outlying villages in Sevilla province (but I'm not too sure if that is possible)

Other authors speak of the entry of the Almoravids in Spain at Algeciras as being signalled by the sound of the beat of the javelins on the hippo-skin shields.

Jacinto Bosch Vila himself and those quoting him speak of the Almoravids using black mercenaries from the 3 rivers lands and also mercenaries/soldiers from Asia Minor

The first Almoravid activity was in the direction of the 3 rivers and the conquest of Gao etc. Though an ex poster on here, Mansa Musa, used to deny that the Almoravids could possibly beat his beloved black empire, it seems undeniable that, whatever the situation, they continued to use them, either subjects or mercenaries (I think the most likely is certain leaders sent troops as a sort of tribute/payment)

In his definitive history of the Almohads, Huici Miranda also makes reference to a garrison force of black troops - I can't remember the context but I'm fairly sure it was in the outlying parts of Morocco. It seems likely that the Almohad Empire merely inherited a lot of existing arrangements from the expiring Almoravids. I remember they were referred to in fairly derogative terms by the Almohad leaders , who were extremely (what we would today call) racist towards non-berbers such as blacks, arab subjects/allies, jews and Andalusian muslims, to name but a few.
Sorry but I sided with, the Almoravid conquest of Ghana don't make much sense since the Ghana empire fell like a century after that possible conquest. They were maybe fight and the conquest of aoudaghost and potentially sijilmassa. Read the wiki page Ghana Empire - Wikipedia
 
Nov 2010
7,545
Cornwall
Sorry but I sided with, the Almoravid conquest of Ghana don't make much sense since the Ghana empire fell like a century after that possible conquest. They were maybe fight and the conquest of aoudaghost and potentially sijilmassa. Read the wiki page Ghana Empire - Wikipedia
I think I prefer Jacinto Bosch Vila's book 'Los Almoravides' to Wiki. But in any case, whilst the Almoravids did maybe seem to give them a good fight early on, once there attentions were turned north then they didn't seem to pay a lot of attention down south. But we don't really know

The fact remains, their black troops came from there - for some reason!!
 
May 2019
64
Afrique

I think I prefer Jacinto Bosch Vila's book 'Los Almoravides' to Wiki. But in any case, whilst the Almoravids did maybe seem to give them a good fight early on, once there attentions were turned north then they didn't seem to pay a lot of attention down south. But we don't really know

The fact remains, their black troops came from there - for some reason!!
Yes, definitely. For me I think that the south wasn't enough interesting to conquest and since the Almoravid were Muslim they direct themselves to the north towards other berber groups maybe. Also don't forget that at it peak Ghana could have 200k men as army and the decline began only around the Almoravid time, considering that the army of Almoravid for their Spain campaign was around 24k I don't think they were a match. But they did have an impact on Ghana by seizing some of the city in the trade route down to Sahara. Ghana decline mostly due to internal conflict and maybe economic but it was a slow process.
As for their black soldiers I mentioned it earlier, some come from Tekrur an kingdom contemporary to Ghana and a islamized one. They were rival in some point. That's why I think that Tekrur had something to do with the raid of Almoravid on Ghana. I will find the sources but as I said up there among the 24k Almoravid some 4k were from Tekrur. Also Ghana did have Muslim population maybe some of them join the movement but it's speculation for this one.
 
Mar 2012
378
Well I mean its not as if a Majority of Indians are not Dark and some even as "black" as most Africans, dont forget most Africans are Brown Skinned.




Its not like these people are a anomoly or something, Ive literally seen Indians with darker skin than me.
Indian Photographer focusing on Dark Skinned Indians
Chennai photographer defies India's fair-skin fetish

The fact that Indians are no longer considered Black just shows how shaky the concept of race is.
I dont think so. Any few shades darker people were "Moors" or "Negroes" for Europeans. In 18th and 19th century British sources, brown-skinned North Indians are referred to as Negroes and Blacks.
 
Nov 2010
7,545
Cornwall



Yes, definitely. For me I think that the south wasn't enough interesting to conquest and since the Almoravid were Muslim they direct themselves to the north towards other berber groups maybe. Also don't forget that at it peak Ghana could have 200k men as army and the decline began only around the Almoravid time, considering that the army of Almoravid for their Spain campaign was around 24k I don't think they were a match. But they did have an impact on Ghana by seizing some of the city in the trade route down to Sahara. Ghana decline mostly due to internal conflict and maybe economic but it was a slow process.
As for their black soldiers I mentioned it earlier, some come from Tekrur an kingdom contemporary to Ghana and a islamized one. They were rival in some point. That's why I think that Tekrur had something to do with the raid of Almoravid on Ghana. I will find the sources but as I said up there among the 24k Almoravid some 4k were from Tekrur. Also Ghana did have Muslim population maybe some of them join the movement but it's speculation for this one.
Another thing Bosch Vila asserts is that the spread of islam under the arab empire in the 7th and 8th century was rather mythical and token in many ways (as in many conquests). Most berber tribes never really became islamic - and 1 was pagan - until the imposition of the Almoravids. This is probably true (how could they possibly reach each outlying area in such a rapid spread?) but how this fits in with islamisation in subsaharan Africa/West Sudan I have little idea.
 
May 2019
64
Afrique
Another thing Bosch Vila asserts is that the spread of islam under the arab empire in the 7th and 8th century was rather mythical and token in many ways (as in many conquests). Most berber tribes never really became islamic - and 1 was pagan - until the imposition of the Almoravids. This is probably true (how could they possibly reach each outlying area in such a rapid spread?) but how this fits in with islamisation in subsaharan Africa/West Sudan I have little idea.
Agree that they couldn't convert everyone that fast, many berber tribes were still pagan or poorly islamized for years after the Islamic/arab conquest. That why it's called conquest,all the Andalusia wasn't Muslim even after several conquest. Even so I agree that Almoravid were more orthodox and may have speed up the conversion process by war.

And another myth is that the north African are Arab, most of them are more berber than they are Arab even sometimes more close to Europeans. They just get arabized like for some sub Saharan population.
 
Last edited:
Sep 2014
869
Texas
Ummmm yeah ... again people are not reading what I wrote .

I wasn't talking about who CIVILIZED Spain and i said the Moors did NOT 'civilize' Spain .

" The Province of Almeria was populated by Neolitic and Palaeolithic civilisations who left their traces in the Almanzora caves. "

Copyright of this text and more info at: Ancient Civilizations and Ancient Discoveries in Almeria, Spain Ancient Civilizations and Ancient Discoveries in Almeria, Spain

or all you had to do was look up Wikipedia :rolleyes:

" Before the Roman conquest the major cultures along the Mediterranean coast were the Iberians, the Celts in the interior and north-west, the Lusitanians in the west, and the Tartessians in the southwest. The seafaring Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Greeks successively established trading settlements along the eastern and southern coast. The first Greek colonies, such as Emporion (modern Ampurias), were founded along the northeast coast in the 9th century BC, leaving the south coast to the Phoenicians "

History of Spain - Wikipedia
I post on Wikipedia too....but I admit, the question just ticked me off. Hell it was a Carthiginian attack on a Greek colony that got Rome involved. I have hard enough time with horsemen thinking all the incredible horses in Spain died off the day before the Berbers were ferried to Iberia, I don't need the Berbers getting credit for the people too.
 
Sep 2014
869
Texas
Another thing Bosch Vila asserts is that the spread of islam under the arab empire in the 7th and 8th century was rather mythical and token in many ways (as in many conquests). Most berber tribes never really became islamic - and 1 was pagan - until the imposition of the Almoravids. This is probably true (how could they possibly reach each outlying area in such a rapid spread?) but how this fits in with islamisation in subsaharan Africa/West Sudan I have little idea.
I'm still crying for the Sogdians at Mugh Castle.
 

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