"The Moors civilized Europe" theory

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,426
Portugal
I never said they were the first or the only ones. I said they were the only ones in the time period we're talking about, that is, the Greco-Roman period.
I assume that “they” are the Celts, and I continue to doubt that they were the only ones in the period that we are mentioning. After all there were Germanic tribes around there too.

We know that Celtiberians are Celts because of inscriptions of their language and the spread of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures to Spain. Obviously they were not the same as the Gauls or the Britons and one can say they were not "pure" Celts but they're still culturally Celtic.
There were Celts in the Iberian Peninsula, we don’t have any doubts of that, even quite far from the Meseta. The issue that I brought was that is disputable that the populi that the Romans called Celtiberians were “Iberized” Celts, meaning Iberians, or “Celtized” Iberians, meaning Celts. The main trend is that they were “Celtized” Iberians, meaning Celts, but that is still an open field of research, as far as I know.

I don’t know what “pure” Celts are in this context.

Anyway, my comment was a minor correcting regarding two cities: Numantia (Celtiberian, that could be or not Celt), and Saguntum that was Iberian and not Celt. The Iberians also can be considered a civilization on its own terms.

The members of extinct site “Arqueotavira.com”, from the archaeological field of Tavira (Portugal), made a good map of the pre-Roman Iberian peninsula, widely reproduced in the net (see bottom).

The Latin word "mine" is of Celtic origin and the Romans learned to make swords, chainmail and javelins from them. The earliest iron mining in Western Europe seems to be by the Celts.
I didn’t say you were wrong, or right. I said it is doubtful. So, I request a source on this.

So Sumer did (barely), but not Egypt so the point about sewer systems still stands, unless we now say that Egypt is not a civilisation now.
Did anything that I posted previously questioned that Ancient Egypt was a Civilization?
 

Attachments

Feb 2017
526
Latin America
I assume that “they” are the Celts, and I continue to doubt that they were the only ones in the period that we are mentioning. After all there were Germanic tribes around there too.
I'm unaware of any claim of Germanic seagoing in the North Sea in this period. They did traverse the Baltic coasts, but not the North Sea as far as I'm aware.


I didn’t say you were wrong, or right. I said it is doubtful. So, I request a source on this.
A good place to start is "Iron and Steel in Ancient Times" by Vagn Buchwald, "The Celtic Sword" by Radomir Pleiner and "The Sword and the Crucible" by Allan Williams. Tylecote says the following: "It is from Europe that most of our information on the EIA [Early Iron Age] comes. The two great type-sites are Hallstatt in Austria and La Tene in Switzerland. The first is the earlier site and typifies the impact of the Iron Age on Central Europe from Asia Minor, probably via the Danube. The cemetery at Hallstatt dates from the 8th century BC".

Here's ths source for the word mine being of Celtic origin.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,426
Portugal
I'm unaware of any claim of Germanic seagoing in the North Sea in this period. They did traverse the Baltic coasts, but not the North Sea as far as I'm aware.
They had the Ocean and they had ships. We can imagine that the Viking Age didn’t come from nothing. And we know that people faced the sea since the Neolithic. A. W. Brogger seemed to have studied it (even carvings in Norway since the Palaeolithic). But as you certainly are already aware, the Iberian Peninsula is my main area, not the Germanics or Scandinavia. I just don’t take all the claims for granted.

Besides doesn’t Tacitus makes some mention of ships in “Germania”?

Then we have this archaeological site were a boat was discovered: Nydam Mose - Wikipedia, why should they restrict to the Baltic, and not explore the shores of the North Sea? Seems a jumpy conclusion to think otherwise.

Also, for my reference, a review: Review on JSTOR

A good place to start is "Iron and Steel in Ancient Times" by Vagn Buchwald, "The Celtic Sword" by Radomir Pleiner and "The Sword and the Crucible" by Allan Williams. Tylecote says the following: "It is from Europe that most of our information on the EIA [Early Iron Age] comes. The two great type-sites are Hallstatt in Austria and La Tene in Switzerland. The first is the earlier site and typifies the impact of the Iron Age on Central Europe from Asia Minor, probably via the Danube. The cemetery at Hallstatt dates from the 8th century BC".
In my college days I studied Hallstatt and La Tene type sites, but I don’t know the works that you mentioned, or Tylecote’s work (the name of the book you quote wasn’t mentioned), but that wasn’t exactly what I asked, or the quote doesn’t say that the “Celts actually taught the Romans how to mine iron and mould it”. Even if we know that the Romans adopted some Celtic (and Iberian and others) equipment, it was the case of the Gladius (from Spain) or the Scutum (Samnite?).

Here's ths source for the word mine being of Celtic origin.
Or from the Greek, as the same source states:

mina - Wiktionary

or still in Wiktionary:

μνᾶ - Wiktionary

or at Perseus:

Latin Word Study Tool

Etymology is quite tricky.
 
Aug 2018
697
london
there are petroglyph depictions of large boats in Scandinavia dating back to the Bronze Age, though Scandinavians and Germanics seem to have mostly rowed up to late antiquity, rather than using sails, though there's some evidence of sail use too. Some claim the Anglo-Saxons rowed over to Britain.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,426
Portugal
there are petroglyph depictions of large boats in Scandinavia dating back to the Bronze Age, though Scandinavians and Germanics seem to have mostly rowed up to late antiquity, rather than using sails, though there's some evidence of sail use too. Some claim the Anglo-Saxons rowed over to Britain.
Quoting from the link provided a JSTOR: “The first chapter is by A. W. Brogger and is headed 'The Boats of Very Early Times'. In this chapter, Brogger traces the origin and development of the ship in Scandinavia from the Palaeolithic to the Viking Period. This chapter is arranged along chronological grounds and outlines the main sources of evidence from the Palaeolithic rock carvings of North Norway to the small boats of the Gokstad find. To those readers familiar with Shetelig, Falk and Gordon's SCANDINAVIAN ARCHAEOLOGY (1937), the content of this chapter will seem rather like an expanded version of chapter 21 of that book which was written some fourteen years earlier. Brogger gives us a lot more information of course and the text is furnished with some excellent plates which are quite liberally scattered throughout.”

About the sails: “In this same chapter, Brogger also touches upon the thorny question of when sail was first introduced into North European waters. This problem is still as open and disputed as is the argument over the origins of the clinker-built boat. Shetelig and Brogger see mast and keel as inter-related and parallel developments. Their argument is based on the belief that no sea-going craft could carry a mast until a proper true-keel had evolved. This again is expressed by Shetelig in SCANDINAVIAN ARCHAEOLOGY, (1937, pp. 354-355) when he writes that on the Nydam ship "there is no possibility of using sails because the building of the time was unable to produce the special devices needed to bear and support the mast". According to Shetelig and Brogger, mast development was necessarily held in check because of the lack of a firm, solid keel structure to brace the foot of the mast.”

The mentioned book is available online: Scandinavian archaeology : Shetelig, Haakon, 1877-1955 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
Aug 2019
151
Netherlands
The viking vessels were just the latest development of a long tradition of boat building which had a strong presence already before the corded ware culture.

So those saxon pirates with such a notorious reputation would outrow celtic sailing vessels at the North Sea, lol. Or they would say, hey let's row to Scotland that'll be fun..
 
Last edited:
May 2015
50
Schertz ,Tx
Slavon, I don't think anyone can answer that question. I think in Zimbawae there are some ruins that could have been built by native blacks,forgot the ruins name. There were some other african countries that may have had several civilizations who produced metal work etc. And of course you had the Land of Kush, near Eygpt.But why the rest of the contienet never gave way to great civilizations like similar to Greece, Rome, China, and some others I don't think anyone can truly answer that.
 

LatinoEuropa

Ad Honorem
Oct 2015
5,316
Matosinhos Portugal
Gentlemen, is that a question?

The Romans named the Iberian Peninsula Hispania and who named the Iberian Peninsula, the Iberian Peninsula ???

Iberia the origin is Greek

Peninsula Latin origin

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Senhores professores,é uma pergunta?

Os Romanos deu o nome Hispania á Peninsula Ibérica e quem deu o nome de Peninsula Ibérica,á Peninsula Ibérica???

Ibéria a origem é Grega

Peninsula origem Latim


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(Perguntar não ofende,mas chateia - Asking does not offend but annoys ) proverb )))
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,982
Cornwall
I assume that “they” are the Celts, and I continue to doubt that they were the only ones in the period that we are mentioning. After all there were Germanic tribes around there too.



There were Celts in the Iberian Peninsula, we don’t have any doubts of that, even quite far from the Meseta. The issue that I brought was that is disputable that the populi that the Romans called Celtiberians were “Iberized” Celts, meaning Iberians, or “Celtized” Iberians, meaning Celts. The main trend is that they were “Celtized” Iberians, meaning Celts, but that is still an open field of research, as far as I know.

I don’t know what “pure” Celts are in this context.
The last Spanish ancient history book I read opined that the 'Celtisation' of Iberia was interupted by the Roman conquest and it deploys maps to show where Celts were (mainly central belts) and where older settlers were.


 
Jan 2020
130
cumberstone
The Moors and Arabs were more important in the reintroduction of ancient Greco-Roman knowledge for the posterior than the Byzantines.