"The Moors civilized Europe" theory

Mar 2013
1,441
Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
The notion about an European Middle Ages that suffered a thousand year of decline from 500-1500CE entirely, is a popular misconception from 18 th century where the study of humanities were not exactly what it is today and is rejected among the scholars on medieval Europe today. They agree today that European Middle Ages was a dynamic period and that idea seems to be spreading these days especially thanks to the efforts of the historians (and the internet).

And I will of course contribute to destroy such a popular misconception:

It is true that a Migration Period occurred and various primitive tribes from Germania moved southward and eventually the western part of Europe went into a sort of “Dark Ages” initially as the various tribes did not have laws and relied on family kinships, and as they were not interesting in Greek classic learning until they adopted Christianity. But that was only the Western part of Europe that was heavily destroyed, because in the eastern side the Byzantine Empire virtually continued a vibrant Greco-Roman culture where ancient learning and laws were preserved. Anyway it would still be wrong of suggesting that the western part of Europe were declining for 1000 years as the primitive tribes that have migrated earlier eventually settled down and progressed. There were made contribution in the fields of science, philosophy, architecture, farming plus other things. And in the High Middle Ages the Western Europe virtually reached somehow the same level as Byzantium and the Arabs.

However it would not be untrue of saying that the Arabs were ahead in some fields, like for instance the mathematic. And that has more to do with the fact that the Muslims had the 10-digits system that allowed them to calculate in a way the Europeans could not with the roman digits. The so-called Arabic numeral system is by the way an Indian invention. Not surprisingly that Al-Khawarizmi, the greatest mathematician in Middle Ages, was from the eastern part of Persia close to the Indian Subcontinent.

The Arabs did certainly not “saved a lot of lost Roman and Greek writings” as Byzantium already had them in a better condition, and as it was Byzantium that introduced them to the Arabs, and as it was even native non-Arab Christians that previously had lived under Byzantium that took the brunt of translating classics texts into Arabic in for instance the House of Wisdom in Baghdad to the unskilled Arabs whose origins is out in the desert as nomads.

Those here who say or will say onwards that European Middle Ages from 500-1500CE was an entirely backwards place without inventions, are either not well informed in this topic or has a propagandistic agenda.
 
Mar 2013
1,441
Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
...Bodin saw the 15th-16th century Ottoman Empire as a place of religious tolerance, a place to learn from.
Jean Bodin is comparing apples with pears and on a superficial view.

He most likely saw an Ottoman Empire that had Christians as underclass citizens and comparing them with Catholic France that did not tolerate Protestants connected to anti-Catholic Martin Luther whose views were dangerous for Catholic monarchies as they threatened the authority of the Catholic kings.

The Ottoman Empire even did not tolerate shia-Muslims after the Safavids Empire arise and for instance under Selim II or III persecuted the Shia-Muslims and not to mention that the Sunni-Shia-conflict is even ongoing these days despite we have reached into the 21 th century. None any of these hook nosed Ottoman sultans would accept if an anti-Sunni reformation occurred among his Sunni subjects and threatened his position in which emphasized by the Shia persecution.

The Christians when they ruled over a vast number of Muslims they were also tolerated as underclass citizens in the same way more or less. The expulsion from Isabella and Ferdinand was something that found place in the last phase. Like for instance some centuries earlier in Iberia the Christians kingdoms under El Cid or Alfonso 10 tolerated the Muslims while the Almohad Caliphate persecuted Christians and Jews. – In the Crusader States the Muslims were generally also tolerated as underclass citizens where even contemporary person like Ibn Jubayr that was in the Crusader States, directly wrote that the Muslims were better of being ruled by the Crusaders.

And more importantly the Christians kingdoms that tolerated Muslims in Spain or in Levant as underclass citizens never had such a malicious practice like devshirme where the Turks abducted children of their OWN Christians subjects to turn them into islamic soldier.

Here a section of the works of John McCannon and his rendition of how to interpret the source from Bodin on page 498:



https://books.google.dk/books?id=tA_3y2XsMMsC&pg=PA498&lpg=PA498&dq=bodin+ottoman&source=bl&ots=7hqyXPyCML&sig=YEE2wCebELGVsdbPfJBy02NDsMw&hl=da&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip6_WfuJXKAhXDkCwKHe8iDf8Q6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=bodin ottoman&f=false
 

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Oct 2015
239
Chicago
The Moors brought us Math because we had no concept of mathematics since we were using the Roman numerals which don't enable you to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. The Moors (which contain many peoples such as Turks, Persians, Arabs, Africans...) brought us their numbering system which we still use today. Yes, 1, 2, 3... are from the Arabs and those numbers are Arabic. Using their numerical system gave us the ability to perform mathematical functions.

Ibn Sina was the first person to document and develop medicine. They had the first hospitals, medical schools, etc.

We just don't want to accept we didn't used to be #1. We were ignorant and had no idea that cleanliness affected health. They were using all kinds of ways to clean their environment when we were up here in Europe bathing once a year or much much less.
umm didn't Rome have bath houses
 
Nov 2015
1,016
Ayton
umm didn't Rome have bath houses
I think Wanda was talking about clinical cleanliness. Still an issue in modern hospitals. Unheard of in military surgery until the 1900s.

Ok she wasn't but she forgets that we in England only had to walk down the lane to be given a thorough shower.

People in bath houses shouldn't pass stones.
 
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Oct 2015
239
Chicago
the thing is....if Islam was more advanced then Europe at this time and taught the Europeans math, logic science


why is Europe responsible for essentially Modern Science
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
They're bringing up the point how EUrope was dark at that time, no. it wasn't. Europe is founded on the Romans and Greeks, who had never met the Moors at the time, who didn't exist during the Roman/Greek periods.
That isn't true actually. The Moors, and their ancestors, had been living in North Africa for thousands of years. In fact western North Africa, which the Romans called Mauritania, took its name from the Moors. (Mauri in Latin)

After Rome expanded into North Africa, the Moorish kingdom initially became a client state to Rome, and later was absorbed a full province on the death of a king in 40 AD. The Moors had spent centuries living under Roman occupation, just as the Iberians had.
 
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Oct 2015
239
Chicago
That isn't true actually. The Moors, and their ancestors, had been living in North Africa for thousands of years. In fact western North Africa, which the Romans called Mauritania, took its name from the Moors. (Mauri in Latin)

After Rome in expanded into North Africa, the Moorish kingdom initially became a client state to Rome, and later was absorbed a full province on the death of a king in 40 AD. The Moors had spent centuries living under Roman occupation, just as the Iberians had.
how did Rome defeat the Moors?
 
Nov 2015
1,016
Ayton
the thing is....if Islam was more advanced then Europe at this time and taught the Europeans math, logic science


why is Europe responsible for essentially Modern Science
It may be a too big thought. Allah made the World. Allah rules the World but only Europeans could conscience the idea of blowing it up! In order to work towards blowing the world up, Europeans needed different skills. Which means... That every advance in technology brought us one step nearer to blowing the World up and really peeing Allah off.

The European God would not be affected because he is based a long way away.
2000 years and Jesus isn't back yet! Stands to reason the Heaven is a long way away.
Some of the polytheist gods might be upset so it would be wise to avoid Cows in the Armageddon.

Oi! Pope! You want an advisor?:zany:
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
how did Rome defeat the Moors?
They were defeated during the Jugurthine War, after which they became allies of Rome.

The Mauritanian king Bocchus initially supported the Numidian king Jugurtha (his son-in-law) against the Romans. Jugurtha had also promised Bocchus 1/3 of his kingdom in return for military aid. After the Romans defeated the combined forces of Bocchus and Jugurtha twice in battle, Bocchus switched sides and allied with the Romans, promising to turn his son-in-law over to them. Bocchus lured Jugurtha into a trap, and promptly seized him and turned him over to the Romans. He was awarded part of Jugurtha's kingdom at the conclusion of the war.

When Bocchus later died, his kingdom was split into two with each of his two sons inheriting a kingdom, each of whom supported Julius Caesar during the civil war against the optimates. After Caesar was assassinated the two kings once again got drawn into a Roman civil war, but on opposite sides. One supported Mark Antony and the other Octavian. When Octavian emerged victorious, the son who had supported him was awarded both kingdoms. The other king had died in battle during the Actium campaign. When Bocchus II, the king that had supported Octavian later died, his kingdom went to Juba II, the king of Numidia and a Roman client-king. When Juba died rule of Mauretania passed to his son Ptolemy, who was later murdered on the orders of the Emperor Caligula. In response to the assassination the Berbers (both the Mauri and the Numidians were Berber peoples) rose in revolt, and after a hard campaign to suppress the revolt, the Romans (then ruled by Claudius) divided the kingdom into two separate Roman provinces, ruled by Roman governors.
 
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