The much maligned Qing Dynasty

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
Then this nation of yours has little objective meaning and is nothing more than to use your own words; a label and it's difference with the “people of the central state” or "Chinese" used by the Qing is only a relative one, and not an absolute one.


The Mongols were kept separate politically, but not ideologically. The idea of a unified Mongol ulus actually better ensured Qing rule.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
The Yuan was part of the Mongolian Empire. China was known as the Khanate of the Great Khan. There was no China during its time of subjugation by the Mongolians.
The Yuan was not part of the Mongol Empire, it WAS the Mongol Empire. The Dayuan Dayitongzhi clearly labeled the entire Mongol Empire as the Yuan and stated that the Yuan included both Russia and the Persian khanate. The Mongol Empire was never ideologically fragmented even if it was de facto divided. Other than Qaidu, the emperor/Qaghan at Beijing was always the Great Qan of the entire Mongol Empire, and the name of his state, the Yuan, was not just the part that he directly ruled.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,553
heavenlykaghan said:
The Dayuan Dayitongzhi clearly labeled the entire Mongol Empire as the Yuan and stated that the Yuan included both Russia and the Persian khanate
Interesting, can you give the quote?

And did the other khanates besides the Yuan acknowledge the Yuan as THE Mongol empire?
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
The Yuan was not part of the Mongol Empire, it WAS the Mongol Empire. The Dayuan Dayitongzhi clearly labeled the entire Mongol Empire as the Yuan and stated that the Yuan included both Russia and the Persian khanate. The Mongol Empire was never ideologically fragmented even if it was de facto divided. Other than Qaidu, the emperor/Qaghan at Beijing was always the Great Qan of the entire Mongol Empire, and the name of his state, the Yuan, was not just the part that he directly ruled.
the book is lost.

yuanshi says yuan 西极流沙 , its west is the ut-west of the desert(context, desert now in mongolia etc., xinjiang(?)).

yuan emperor at most is like qing emperor to thailand burma etc., those area does not make up an empire. even worse, none of source can prove chagatai ever "inform" their important status to yuan after the war, such as islam and strange frequently changed rulers, not to mention "ask for support/approve"
Ilkhanate is the only one who willingly acknowledge kublai's succession, even though, they were considered an independent khanate with yuan's suzerain state, and they collapsed soon after the war.
 
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heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
the book is lost.

yuanshi says yuan 西极流沙 , its west is the ut-west of the desert(context, desert now in mongolia etc., xinjiang(?)).

yuan emperor at most is like qing emperor to thailand burma etc., those area does not make up an empire. even worse, none of source can prove chagatai ever "inform" their important status to yuan after the war, such as islam and strange frequently changed rulers, not to mention "ask for support/approve"
Ilkhanate is the only one who willingly acknowledge kublai's succession, even though, they were considered an independent khanate with yuan's suzerain state, and they collapsed soon after the war.
Some fragments of the Yitongzhi is still extant, but I was actually thinking about the atlas from another source before (although I'm sure the Yitongzhi has it too). The source I was talking about was the Jinshidadian 经世大典, written in 1330.


The Chagatai Khanate was under the control of Qaidu, but after Qaidu's death, his son and the Chagatai Qan Duwa both sent an envoy to Yuan Chengzong's court in 1304 to submit. There were still fiefs within the Yuan that belongs to Chagatai and the Ilkhanate and we hear ambassadors from these khanate coming to China to collect taxes. The Mongol Empire was still a real entity that was not completely separate although the Yuan had no military influence over the other Khanates and had no ability to call upon these soldiers even when Chinese rebels were overrunning the empire.


Interesting, can you give the quote?

And did the other khanates besides the Yuan acknowledge the Yuan as THE Mongol empire?
It's in the atlas 大典图,where the Yuan was the title given to the entire Mongol Empire on map. I do not have the original atlas from the Dadian right now.
However you can find the copied map under Weiyuan's Haiguotuzhi:
????????????????_?????_????

The other Khanates were listed under: 元代西北疆域沿革图 "The continued territory of the northwest of the Yuan era".

If I remembered correctly, the original map simply said they were the continued territory of the Yuan.

The Ilkhanate had always accepted that fact, it was Qaidu and his ally the Chagatai which opposed Qubilai, but after 1304, the Ogodeids submitted and the Yuan eventually supported the Chagatai in their overthrow of the Ogodei Khanate and we know from the Jinshidadian that the Golden Horde was also still paying homage to the Yuan.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
Also, in regard to the usage of the word Hyatad in Mongolian, sources after the 17th century, do in fact imply that the Qing were also emperor of the Hyatad, in fact the word "Manchu" in contrast with Hyatad, other than its 17th century usage such as the Altan Tobchi (which referred to the Manchus as separate from hyatad, but still did not mention Manchuria as an area) seem to have blurred as time passed and eventually hyatad did come to refer to the Qing emperors in Mongol sources (however, they were usually written in Tibetan).
In the biography of the Jebsun Damba, written in Tibetan, Kangxi was referred to as "chos byung gi lho khitad nagbo kaghan" or the "southern black khitad kaghan of where the dharma originated".

I also looked over the Amdo Mongol monk Yeshe Peljor's chos byun tshul dpag bsam ljon bzan and the chapter on the dharma history of rgya nag, referred to Shunzhi as "rgya nag mar po" or the "Red Chinese".

Zunghar sources seem to refer to the Qing as hyatad even earlier than the Khalkhs since their idea of geography, like the Tibetans, simply referred to any land in the east, including Manchuria as China (out of ignorance more than anything). I even recall a Chinese passage from Qinggaozong Shilu (I could have remembered the source incorrectly) where the Zunghars referred to the Qing as Han.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
There were still fiefs within the Yuan that belongs to Chagatai and the Ilkhanate and we hear ambassadors from these khanate coming to China to collect taxes. The Mongol Empire was still a real entity that was not completely separate although the Yuan had no military influence over the other Khanates and had no ability to call upon these soldiers even when Chinese rebels were overrunning the empire.
interesting.

how do they collect taxes? the basement to collect tax is the existence of some documents, on the population, on land, on mines...
and you are sure the "within" yuan events were not happened during or before the war?
does chagatai or ilkhanate had any of those doc, beyond what a map tell us where they are?
how do they enter the pass? do they enter by claiming collecting tax, or they enter by claiming visiting yuan emperor? do they even need a diplomatic document to enter the pass?
 
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heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
They lasted until the end of the Yuan since the Jinshidadian still mentioned them and the last record of their visit dates to the 1350s. I do not have the sources right now, but several scholars have done research on this issue both in Japan and China. Li Zhian's 元代分封制度研究 is one such study. It's estimated that virtually half the area of northern China were given as fiefs to the descendants of different Mongol princes and generals. Prior to Qubilai, the princes were virtually autonomous but after Qubilai most of the princes only had the ability to collect their salary, but not controlling the region politically.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
They lasted until the end of the Yuan since the Jinshidadian still mentioned them and the last record of their visit dates to the 1350s. I do not have the sources right now, but several scholars have done research on this issue both in Japan and China. Li Zhian's 元代分封制度研究 is one such study. It's estimated that virtually half the area of northern China were given as fiefs to the descendants of different Mongol princes and generals. Prior to Qubilai, the princes were virtually autonomous but after Qubilai most of the princes only had the ability to collect their salary, but not controlling the region politically.
pre-qubilai, mongol empire certainly existed, no disagreement.

afterwards, with a quick search i see 察合台后王, it was someone divided from Chagatai, not Chagatai itself. yuan put them near 曲先, west qinghai to xinjiang area. it is typical jimi strategy.
 
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heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
You are talking about the division of the Chagatai into two halves in 1348. The Ilkhanate also fragmented in 1335, but it seems the parts still had contact with the Yuan.
The Jinshidadian was written in 1330, before these divisions and it viewed the Yuan as the totality of a single Mongol Empire.