The much maligned Qing Dynasty

[Danny.T]

interesting.

how do they collect taxes? the basement to collect tax is the existence of some documents, on the population, on land, on mines...
and you are sure the "within" yuan events were not happened during or before the war?
does chagatai or ilkhanate had any of those doc, beyond what a map tell us where they are?
how do they enter the pass? do they enter by claiming collecting tax, or they enter by claiming visiting yuan emperor? do they even need a diplomatic document to enter the pass?

The Yuan Dynasty assigned official posts in the Uigher 畏兀兒 area , like 提刑按察司，都護府 and in the western part 宣慰使元帥府，都元師府 units. In 1308 AD households registry of Samarqand regions was presented to Yuen court. Based on that Yuen collected tax from Samarqannd, 塔刺思城 etc. Tax collectors were sent by Yuan Dynasty.
From Yuan Shi 元史 volume 22 ,Wu Zhong Record 1 武宗紀一

After that the eastern part Qara-hoja 哈刺 火州 came under direct rule of Yuan as 總管府 unit. Other areas were under rule of Chagatai royalties.

Han immigrants were located in Bes Baliq 別失八里，Almalik 阿力麻里 etc. Worked as farmers, cotton weavers and garrisoned soldiers. About 30,000 Uighur artisans were absorbed to work in Dadu (Beijing).In the capital city of Chagatai Khanate Almalik, Hans, Mongols and natives lived together.

There were Yuan garrisons in Bes Baliq, 闍鄽，幹端 etc.

If I remember correctly the Yuan bereaucract issued passes to travellers in silver plates to allow travel from khanate to khanate with no trouble.

 

[Danny.T]

"Bereaucract" misspelled, it should be "bureaucracy" in the last paragraph last post on top.

 

[stevapalooza]

If I remember correctly the Yuan bereaucract issued passes to travellers in silver plates to allow travel from khanate to khanate with no trouble.

Yeah, passport badges called Paiza. They came in different ranks and metals. Some were gold, some were iron, silver, or wood. The Mongols get credit for them but they predate the Yuan. The Mongols inherited them from the Jin, who probably inherited them from the Khitans. And of course the idea of passports and travel badges is as old as the road system in China.

 

[Sephiroth]

Yeah, passport badges called Paiza. They came in different ranks and metals. Some were gold, some were iron, silver, or wood. The Mongols get credit for them but they predate the Yuan. The Mongols inherited them from the Jin, who probably inherited them from the Khitans. And of course the idea of passports and travel badges is as old as the road system in China.

Mongols popularized them apparently. And yeah badges that allow you travel, that is one cheap 'invention', I agree.

 

[heavenlykaghan]

The Yuan Dynasty assigned official posts in the Uigher 畏兀兒 area , like 提刑按察司，都護府 and in the western part 宣慰使元帥府，都元師府 units. In 1308 AD households registry of Samarqand regions was presented to Yuen court. Based on that Yuen collected tax from Samarqannd, 塔刺思城 etc. Tax collectors were sent by Yuan Dynasty.
From Yuan Shi 元史 volume 22 ,Wu Zhong Record 1 武宗紀一

After that the eastern part Qara-hoja 哈刺 火州 came under direct rule of Yuan as 總管府 unit. Other areas were under rule of Chagatai royalties.

Han immigrants were located in Bes Baliq 別失八里，Almalik 阿力麻里 etc. Worked as farmers, cotton weavers and garrisoned soldiers. About 30,000 Uighur artisans were absorbed to work in Dadu (Beijing).In the capital city of Chagatai Khanate Almalik, Hans, Mongols and natives lived together.

There were Yuan garrisons in Bes Baliq, 闍鄽，幹端 etc.

If I remember correctly the Yuan bereaucract issued passes to travellers in silver plates to allow travel from khanate to khanate with no trouble.

I don't see this in volume 22 of Yuan Shi.

 

[stevapalooza]

Mongols popularized them apparently. And yeah badges that allow you travel, that is one cheap 'invention', I agree.

Yeah. Mongols also spread their use far beyond China, which you can give them credit for.

 

[kazeuma]

Nurhaci himself claimed to be restoring a Chinese Dynasty - the Jin Dynasty - when he established the "Later Jin."

The Jin Dynasty in question ruled the Northern part of China between 1115 and 1234 calling itself in official documents "Zhongguo."

It was Nurhaci's son who changed the "Later Jin" to the "Great Qing" in order to correspond to the Chinese zodiac system where the character of Qing bore "Water" which overcomes the "fire" within the of the "Ming".

(The last time I checked using the Chinese zodiacal system suggests they were already becoming Sinocised even before they crossed the Great Wall.)

Thus Qing (Later Jin) had pretext behind them to restore what they believed to be their traditional national borders. A few raids along the great wall helped the Ming towards its final grave.

But, this all changed with the treasonous betrayal of Wu Sangui (both the Communists and the Nationalists agree that Wu Sangui was scum) - the gates was opened for restoration of the traditional borders of the Jin Dynasty, suppress the rebellions, and restore the Mandate of Heaven.

(The last time I checked using the words "Mandate of Heaven" was a Chinese idea - thus becoming Sinocised.)

Once the Three Feudatories was suppressed the Middle Kingdom knew mostly prosperity under the Kangxi Emperor, the Yongzheng Emperor, and the Qianglong Emperor.

-----------

As for the addition of Tibet they had a pretext - some of the Pro-Ming rebels were gathering in Tibet (after fleeing from what you on this thread would call "China proper") along with Muslim patriots wanting their own nation. They sent letters to the rulers of Tibet to recognize them as the rulers of China proper (according to the Mandate of Heaven) and Tibetan subservience to that of Beijing (as the Tibetan rulers did for the Yuan and the Ming Emperors on their ascension to the throne accordance to the Mandate of Heaven)- the letters were burned and the messengers were killed somewhere between Tibet and the Qing (Later Jin) capital. The Qing (Later Jin) marched in and solved that.

If you are talking about adding the Mongolian areas - they had pretext as well - a Mongol raid of a single village, the Mongols refusal to submit to their rule, and / or recognize them as the rulers of China - thus The Qing (Later Jin) marched in and solved that.

 

[Sephiroth]

^what kind of pretext they had adding 'Mongolian' and Tibetan areas or what events are you even refering to(btw. the Mongols had always pretext too, eventually you could argue they fought a defensive war the whole time ) ? Nurhaci declared himself as the first Khan of the Later Jin. You could say the later Jin was a Khanate actually. In Mongolian he is also known as Nurhaci Bataar.

The point of Zhongguo and why Non Han people insist they are Chinese too, is a way of legitimization of their rule, that much should be obvious.
But whenever Han people were in rule, they would insist Zhongguo is only for Han.

The Manchus were NOT sinicized at the beginning, in what way were they sinicized? Zodiac system? Lel.

 

[Sephiroth]

^And this was well history. Modern China is different. In PRC, Han people are not in rule per se, as minorities enjoy many benefits in theory Han people don't have etc. Its the opposite actually... And the people livin within are indeed sinicized to a significant extent, they all speak a Chinese language for example.

 

[Danny.T]

I don't see this in volume 22 of Yuan Shi.

Yes, the quote from Yuan Shi was only for Samarqand's submission of households registry and Yuan Dynasty's sending off tax collectors.

Most of the info in my post was translated from "陳高華說元朝" （Chen Kao Hua talks about the Yuan Dynasty) published in 2009. He is a retired professor of history who centred his research mainly on Yuan Dynasty and became one of the experts in that field. He was a member of an editorial board of U.N. for "The Civilization History of Central Asia". He was also used to be the president of the Chinese research society for Yuan dynasty history.中國元史硏究會

Minor parts about the North West were from other sources.

The book in format however was not a serious academic written text as the titled word "talks" implied. All references if any were related in parallel with the written text only. Still the book gives a lot of information about Yuan Dynasty which I cannot find from other books.
"元大都" (Dadu of Yuan) The Great Capital of Yuan Dynasty , of 1982 is one of his famous works translated into Japanese only. Dadu is Beijing founded by Yuan.