The much maligned Qing Dynasty


Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
The Quin rulers were blamed for forces beyond their control. China was used to being by far the dominant power of its area, and there was shock at how it was pushed around by foreign power in the 19th century.

If you look at the situation around 1900, a large part of the world was part of European overseas empires.The Americas were almost all ruled by European descended majorities or elites. The European based Russian and Ottoman Empires controlled large parts of Asia and Africa.

The Spanish Empire, the empires I mentioned above and the Austrian Empire also had difficulty falling behind northwestern Europe, which was more advanced in technology etc.

At least China was able to maintain its independence in the 19th century and only gave up small areas of territory to Britain and Portugal.


Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
Who's arguing that?
And who are the Manchus according to you? Because Manchu as an ethnic name doesn't appear unil 16th century. Before that they are called either Jurchens or tribal name is used. Also, that they were not hunter-gatherers, but practiced agriculture is confirmed by the accounts from the period.
In early years of Ming era translators at the court were knowledgable in Jurchen small script and all communication between Jurchen tribes and Ming court was done in it (though ironically without indigenous state apparatus promoting the script, Jurchens soon lost the ability to write and understand it). In Ming era among the tribes of Jianzhou there was present also tribe Wanggiya (完颜), which was the tribe of Aguda, the founder of Jin.

Likewise the link between Jurchen and Manchu languages is quite obvious, both languages being quite set apart from other Tungusic languages. Although possibly Manchu evolved not precisely from the main dialect of Jin Jurchens (dialectal differences are visible also in the extant materials of Ming Bureaus of Translators and Interpretators).
Thank you for the information! The interpretations about Manchus and Jurchens are fairly contradictory and murky.