The much maligned Qing Dynasty

Sephiroth

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Feb 2015
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This is late Qing when it encountered foreigners and were subject to foreign powers. But the Mongols themselves never regarded themselves as Chinese, a part of Qing, not part of China shich was Khitad - for Mongols they were different entities, from the late Qing POV maybe not, but this hardly matters, the late Qing can't properly represent century long rule.
 

Sephiroth

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Feb 2015
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Its similar to how Yuan dynasty was just a part of the Mongol Empire from the Mongol POV but the Chinese would regard themselves as different entity, namely part the Yuan dynasty solely. And of course it helped the Mongol empire broke soon after, but this does not matter. The Qing Chinese emperor was a Khan to Mongols and in fact they themselves called themselves Khan. The Mongols were loyal to Qing not to the entity which is 'China', and it just happens Aing was pretty much China.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,612
in the treaty of nerchinsk, the Qing signed themselves as China, not manchuria or Mongolia. This is not late Qing. If calling themselves as "China" is just empty rhetoric, then they would have signed their state as Manchuria in foreign treaties. Khan is just the Mongolian term meaning king or leader of some state. Do you have any evidence that the Mongols termed the Qing as the emperor of Manchuria first and foremost?

What I was addressing was your point onwhat the Qing saw themselves as, nor what the Mongols saw themselves as not what only the early Qing saw themselves as. The late Qing is still the Qing.
 
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Jul 2014
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In Tibetan Yuan empire was not called chinese. We called it Tsokpo meaning mongol but Qing was seen as Chinese. The Qing emperor was known as Gya nak Gyalpo meaning king/emperor of China.
 

HackneyedScribe

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Feb 2011
6,612
Thanks songsten. Can you put a relevant sentence up in some contemporary treaty or document using that phrase for emperor of China, along with a translation?
 

Sephiroth

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
2,986
It is a Top Secret
in the treaty of nerchinsk, the Qing signed themselves as China, not manchuria or Mongolia. This is not late Qing. If calling themselves as "China" is just empty rhetoric, then they would have signed their state as Manchuria in foreign treaties. Khan is just the Mongolian term meaning king or leader of some state. Do you have any evidence that the Mongols termed the Qing as the emperor of Manchuria first and foremost?

What I was addressing was your point onwhat the Qing saw themselves as, nor what the Mongols saw themselves as not what only the early Qing saw themselves as. The late Qing is still the Qing.
The Qing signed themselves as China? That is because the Qing ruled what is now known as 'China'. :lol: But no, the Mongols allied with Qing before the conquest of 'China' or the Ming Dynasty. Hardly does it matter whether they were emperor of Manchuria or China, but the Manchus as Khan matters. If the Qing would have been not successful in their conquest of China, the Mongols would be still loyal to the Qing in theory.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
1. yuan is not part of mongol empire.
it is not about the old tricky problem. but we need to notice the fact that mongol empire lasted no long. we can argue it ended at Mongke or Kublai's time. but it certainly ended so soon.
2. again, naming yuan or qing is chinese or not is not a real question which can gain conclusive result.
one can argue from political systems, culture, self-naming....
whatever, one thing is clear, yuan is not mongol like. take the succession for example, father and son, one emperor after another, that is not mongol. qing is even more tricky, because later jin itself is not manchu enough, its jurchen enemies were more manchu than it.
3. considering about later ming/early qing times. in fact at first, mongols are more "friendly" to ming (i have to add the period, because they do not actually hold a constant opinion, well so did ming), and part of mongols, small part were ming citizens. mongols ended with qing, that is the normal way for victorious of conquering wars.
 

Sephiroth

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
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1. Yuan dynasty was part of the Mongol Empire. The Mongol Empire shrunk to the Yuan dynasty, having lost Golden Horde etc.

2. And what is 'Mongol like'? The rulers were always Mongols, reason enough.

3. Mongols did not ally with Ming, it was basically about Ligdan Khan and Nurhaci Khan and the Mongol tribes choose Nurhaci, because .. he appeased them .. anyway Ligdan was only nominally ruler, ruler of a small portion of Mongols in reality. He lost the favor.
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
1. yuan is not part of mongol empire.
it is not about the old tricky problem. but we need to notice the fact that mongol empire lasted no long. we can argue it ended at Mongke or Kublai's time. but it certainly ended so soon.
2. again, naming yuan or qing is chinese or not is not a real question which can gain conclusive result.
one can argue from political systems, culture, self-naming....
whatever, one thing is clear, yuan is not mongol like. take the succession for example, father and son, one emperor after another, that is not mongol. qing is even more tricky, because later jin itself is not manchu enough, its jurchen enemies were more manchu than it.
3. considering about later ming/early qing times. in fact at first, mongols are more "friendly" to ming (i have to add the period, because they do not actually hold a constant opinion, well so did ming), and part of mongols, small part were ming citizens. mongols ended with qing, that is the normal way for victorious of conquering wars.
The Yuan was part of the Mongolian Empire. China was known as the Khanate of the Great Khan. There was no China during its time of subjugation by the Mongolians.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
The Yuan was part of the Mongolian Empire. China was known as the Khanate of the Great Khan. There was no China during its time of subjugation by the Mongolians.
it is not.
they fought at least two wars, yuan and the four Khanates.
later the Khanates collapse themselves, even less mongol empire then.

take a comparison, for some time period, tang emperors was called heaven khan, because they have real power over those guys who call them as such. yuan however for most of its time has no power over the four Khanates. the four Khanates have no power upon each other too.
 
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