The much maligned Qing Dynasty

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
1. Yuan dynasty was part of the Mongol Empire. The Mongol Empire shrunk to the Yuan dynasty, having lost Golden Horde etc.

2. And what is 'Mongol like'? The rulers were always Mongols, reason enough.

3. Mongols did not ally with Ming, it was basically about Ligdan Khan and Nurhaci Khan and the Mongol tribes choose Nurhaci, because .. he appeased them .. anyway Ligdan was only nominally ruler, ruler of a small portion of Mongols in reality. He lost the favor.
take succession for example, mongol like is that they gather a conference and elect one new khan, very "democratic", as long as you can live to the end.
that is not working for yuan.

btw: Ligdan is the last true mongol khan...quite disappointed see you credit him so little.
 

Sephiroth

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
2,986
It is a Top Secret
it is not.
they fought at least two wars, yuan and the four Khanates.
later the Khanates collapse themselves, even less mongol empire then.

take a comparison, for some time period, tang emperors was called heaven khan, because they have real power over those guys who call them as such. yuan however for most of its time has no power over the four Khanates. the four Khanates have no power upon each other too.
Kublai Khan was the legitimate successor of the last Great Khan, making him the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire. He loses power over the other Khanates, that leaves the Yuan Dynasty as the Mongol Empire.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
Kublai Khan was the legitimate successor of the last Great Khan, making him the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire. He loses power over the other Khanates, that leaves the Yuan Dynasty as the Mongol Empire.
a long way around...

btw the wars were fought because someone argued that he was not legal at all.
 
Last edited:

Sephiroth

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
2,986
It is a Top Secret
take succession for example, mongol like is that they gather a conference and elect one new khan, very "democratic", as long as you can live to the end.
that is not working for yuan.

btw: Ligdan is the last true mongol khan...quite disappointed see you credit him so little.
Nah but he held very little real power, barely anyone would join him if he requested them etc. Certainly he ruled the Chahars etc. but never the Khalkhas in what is now Mongolia etc.
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,858
Florania
1. Yuan dynasty was part of the Mongol Empire. The Mongol Empire shrunk to the Yuan dynasty, having lost Golden Horde etc.

2. And what is 'Mongol like'? The rulers were always Mongols, reason enough.

3. Mongols did not ally with Ming, it was basically about Ligdan Khan and Nurhaci Khan and the Mongol tribes choose Nurhaci, because .. he appeased them .. anyway Ligdan was only nominally ruler, ruler of a small portion of Mongols in reality. He lost the favor.
Ligdan Khan was a good warrior but rather inept diplomat or politician.
 
Jul 2014
1,660
world
Thanks songsten. Can you put a relevant sentence up in some contemporary treaty or document using that phrase for emperor of China, along with a translation?
Lots of Sakya (mongol appointed overlords) dynasty correspondence and their scripture refer to Yuan as Tsokpo/mongol not Gya/Chinese. When phogmodrug rebelled the Sakya wrote letters to Yuan emperor addressing him as Tsokpo/mongol emperor asking for reinforcement.

The Ming and Qing was seen as totally Chinese empire. Tibetan did not differentiate between Han and Manchu until very late into Qing period. All correspondence to Qing addressed the emperor as the emperor of China unlike the Yuan who was called emperor of Mongols.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,612
The Qing signed themselves as China? That is because the Qing ruled what is now known as 'China'. :lol: But no, the Mongols allied with Qing before the conquest of 'China' or the Ming Dynasty. Hardly does it matter whether they were emperor of Manchuria or China, but the Manchus as Khan matters. If the Qing would have been not successful in their conquest of China, the Mongols would be still loyal to the Qing in theory.
The British empire signed themselves as the British empire, not india despite controlling india. The Qing signed themselves as China, not Manchuria. This isn't about the Mongols, this is about how the Qing viewed themselves. Your claim that the Qing calling themselves chinese were just "empty rhetoric", so I brought in examples of Qing dealings with foreigners, not han-chinese, to show otherwise. What the Mongolians thought about their relation to the Qing is irrelevant in this respect.
 
Last edited:

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,612
Lots of Sakya (mongol appointed overlords) dynasty correspondence and their scripture refer to Yuan as Tsokpo/mongol not Gya/Chinese. When phogmodrug rebelled the Sakya wrote letters to Yuan emperor addressing him as Tsokpo/mongol emperor asking for reinforcement.

The Ming and Qing was seen as totally Chinese empire. Tibetan did not differentiate between Han and Manchu until very late into Qing period. All correspondence to Qing addressed the emperor as the emperor of China unlike the Yuan who was called emperor of Mongols.
I was wondering if you could give a sentence from one of those correspondences.
 

Sephiroth

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
2,986
It is a Top Secret
The British empire signed themselves as the British empire, not india despite controlling india. The Qing signed themselves as China, not Manchuria. This isn't about the Mongols, this is about how the Qing viewed themselves. Your claim that the Qing calling themselves chinese were just "empty rhetoric", so I brought in examples of Qing dealings with foreigners, not han-chinese, to show otherwise. What the Mongolians thought about their relation to the Qing is irrelevant in this respect.
You realize there was no China back then, but the Qing dynasty? Qing dynasty =\= China. Just like Ming dynasty =\= Qing dynasty etc. And whats your point about Manchuria anyway? They ruled and lived in China proper, obviously they see it as their home. The Mongols in Mongolia were ruled by Borjigin Khans, who were loyal to Qing, same with Tibet, ruled directly by local monarchs, but what about the Han? I do not know any equivalence. For Manchus it was like a second home. To say the Qing viewed themselves as 'Chinese' is just ignorant. What was 'Chinese' anyway? They obvviously viewed themselbes first and foremost as Manchus.
 
Jul 2014
1,660
world
I was wondering if you could give a sentence from one of those correspondences.
Unfortunately I dont have time to look for the sources but i can tell you this much when we talk of Tang, Sung, Ming and Qing in tibetan language we call them Gyanak gyalbo but when we talk of yuan we call them Tsokpo.

We call Xixia as minyak and consider them half tibetan. Minyak refugees actually escaped to tibet and provoked the 13 makshu to war against the mongols but Tibet was in civil war so couldnt. when Sakya Pandita saw the true force of the mongols they persuaded the 13 makshu to bend knees to mongols. The mongols in turn appointed the Sakyas as overlord of 13 makshu and this stayed true for 140 years.

sorry for my rambling..i am little drunk here.