The prevalence, and tolerance for, homosexuality.

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Apr 2017
484
Sioux City, IA
#1
Some time ago, we were having a debate about the decency of homosexual behaviour. After doing considerable research on the matter, I have determined that in Greece, Rome, and Middle Eastern regions from which Europe gets its civilisation, homosexuality was tolerated, but really only in a pederastic form wherein a man with a beard would use a boy (usually a teen from twelve or so years up to but NOT including when he could start to grow a beard). A mature man serving as a catamite was considered womanish and a disgrace. In fact, the Romans permitted a man whose wife had cheated to rape the man she had cheated with, anally, thus making him a woman.

This seems to have been the case in Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and even India and China and Japan. There were a few exceptions, but not many.

The Jews, of course, required (and Orthodox Jews still do) ALL men to keep beards, and not to castrate any male being, not to wear the clothes of the opposite sex, and NOT to have sex between men. Females were not spoken of in the Old Testament, but the fact that Paul, a Roman Jew, DID speak of the matter implies the lack of tolerance for that.

So, ultimately, this gives the lie to modern-day pc garbage justifying homosexuality. The only tolerance for it was in forms that we would today consider child abuse. Any mature man offering it, or taking it, from another mature man, was considered unnatural and repulsive by most societies, as it should be. And unless we are prepared to tolerate child abuse (I am not), homosexuality is, and has always been considered, perverse, except in forms we should not permit.

Admittedly, less was said about women. This, however, is because in most societies, women were the property of their father until their marriage, after which they were the property of the husband. So, it seems that most historians have agreed, that to the point that sex and women were discussed at all, which was not much, they were expected to be in hetero relationships.

Obviously, there WERE exceptions to these rules. Most militaries forbade gay stuff at all, except as a form of abuse of POW's. The Romans did a lot of that. Win the battle and make the losers women.

The Sacred Band of Thebes was an exception, and the only one I know of, until modern perversions under the likes of Obama started being tolerated in various Western States.

In Plato's Republic, he would have banned sex completely except for procreative purposes. Given his pre-eminence among Greek thinkers, that is a clear indicator that not ALL Greeks were fond of homosexuality, in ANY form. The military of Sparta (pretty much every man) forbade homosexuality under penalty of death.

Gay "marriage" has only rarely been tolerated by any society until recent times. And none of those societies have been Western. Even where it was permitted, there was always a man and a "womanly" role. The man was not encouraged to be a catamite.

Transgender, waking up and deciding to be a different sex, is a mental disorder. If I go to my doctor and say I want my left arm removed surgically, I will be put on meds and in therapy before the sun sets. Tell her I want to cut off my favourite toy and THAT is normal!

The only reason homosexuality and transgenderism are not listed in the DSM is political pressure. In 1973, while the DSM was being rewritten, a huge group of militant homosexuals invaded the conference and shouted that they were "declaring war on psychiatry". They then bullied the committee into eliminating their perversion from the DSM.

The same pressure, albeit more genteel, was exerted on the writers of the DSM-5 regarding transgender perversion. Now, the Militant Alt-Left simply makes your life hell, destroying your reputation, your career, and more if you do not submit. Welcome to reverse McCarthyism.

So, there you are. I look forward to your responses.
 
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Apr 2017
484
Sioux City, IA
#2
It should be noted that when two adult men DID have relations, one was usually a clean-shaven eunuch. He was the catamite, or the "woman". The man of the pair, invariably bearded until Roman times, was never even considered to take the feminine role. This is WHY the Jews imposed the Holiness Code, mentioned above. No man would be a woman, at that point, as they were all bearded, and had their parts.
 
Mar 2012
2,337
#3
How many times must we address these fantasies?

In ancient Rome, homosexuality OF ANY KIND was explciity illegal. The penalty in the legions was death. Tiberius formally charged one of his nephews with homosexual indecency as a crime. Nor was there any separation in shame between "giver" and "receiver." If you read the speeches of Cicero, for example, he shames both seducer and seduced equally. The only survivng Roman novel, THE GOLDEN ASS, has a long passage in which the author denounces and a town chases out a group of homosexuals. The last of the Western empire historians, Marcellinus, talks about the shameful homosexual behavior of the Germans, thus showing that homosexuality remained a Roman taboo until the last of days. Every Roman villain in all histories is portrayed as bi-sexual or homosexual.

Every ancient author agrees that in Sparta, sexual desire for a boy would get your citizenship revoked. The most important source was Xenophon, who commanded Spartan troops in battle and sponsored his sons through the agoge.

Plato makes it clear that feelings regarding homosexuality in Greece depended largely on the city state, and that in Athens, it occurred, but it was shameful for the boy involved and his family. There was no sense of it being "all right." Symposium.

It pays to acually read the historians.

Thebes might have been an exception, as I have not come across any good ancient source that makes it clear, but judging by how modern scholars lie abour Rome, Sparta, and Athens, I am not so sure.

By the way, Alexander the Great, often portrayed as bi-sexual, made it clear on at least two occasions that he despised homosexuality.

I have read now Herodotus in entirety, Thucydides in entirety, two of the major works of Xeonophon, Polybius in entirety, all exant Livy, all extant Tactius, Suetonius, both works of Ceasar, all of Plutarch's lives, Arrian, Sallust in entirety, some Josephus, the Augustine Scribe, Marcellinus, some Cassius Dio, as well as literature by Ovid, Virgil, Cicero, Plato, Apolonius of Rhodes, Quintus of Smyrna, Apuleius, Aescylus, Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles and Euripides. Only Plato has an ambiguous attitude towards homosexuality. Amongst the others, not a single good words is said about it. Not one.
 
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Apr 2017
484
Sioux City, IA
#4
I pretty much agree with what you have said, but find you paint it too broadly. Throughout history, their have been considerable tolerances for male-dominant sexuality with youths. I HAVE read the historians, thank you.

There is no doubt that sex between two adult men was considered vile. But sex between men and boys was permitted.
 
Apr 2017
484
Sioux City, IA
#5
And of course, the Romans did permit that unique way of punishing the man who cheated with your wife. They also allowed abuses of POW's, which, whilst NOT sanctioned legally, was tolerated informally. You are right about Alexander.
 
Mar 2012
2,337
#6
I pretty much agree with what you have said, but find you paint it too broadly. Throughout history, their have been considerable tolerances for male-dominant sexuality with youths. I HAVE read the historians, thank you.

There is no doubt that sex between two adult men was considered vile. But sex between men and boys was permitted.
Name the source then?

Sex with boys was illegal Sparta, and shameful though not illegal in Athens. In Rome a man would be able to get away with it with a slave, but homosexual indecency was a crime.
 
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Apr 2017
484
Sioux City, IA
#7
Name the source then?

Sex with boys was illegal Sparta, and shameful though not illegal in Athens. In Rome a man would be able to get away with it with a slave, but homosexual indecency was a crime.
I see no evidence that sex was shameful with boys in Athens, although it's prevalence may have been restricted to the upper classes. As for Rome, yes, slaves, POW's, and the man who used your wife were fair game.

The Muslim nations were also relatively tolerant due to the influences of their pre-Islamic pasts. This is no longer the case, however. And again, it was always men to boys.

Although Wikipedia itself cannot be used as a source, the footnotes they include can. If you read about legal attitudes toward homosexuality throughout the world, it makes it very clear, with extensive citations, that pederastic attitudes in many societies were permitted.
 
Mar 2012
2,337
#10
I see no evidence that sex was shameful with boys in Athens, although it's prevalence may have been restricted to the upper classes. As for Rome, yes, slaves, POW's, and the man who used your wife were fair game.

The Muslim nations were also relatively tolerant due to the influences of their pre-Islamic pasts. This is no longer the case, however. And again, it was always men to boys.

Although Wikipedia itself cannot be used as a source, the footnotes they include can. If you read about legal attitudes toward homosexuality throughout the world, it makes it very clear, with extensive citations, that pederastic attitudes in many societies were permitted.
What is the source that says such things are permitted.

These from Plato:


Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved as a father would a son, for honorable ends, if he persuade him. But otherwise he must so associate with the objects of his care that there should never be any suspicion of anything further, on penalty of being stigmatized for want of taste and true musical culture.


Whether these matters are to be regarded as sport, or as earnest, we must not forget that this pleasure is held to have been granted by nature to male and female when conjoined for the work of procreation; the crime of male with male, or female with female, is an outrage on nature and a capital surrender to lust of pleasure.
 
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