The Queen's ancestor?

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,525
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
#72
They used to say the same about the Romanovs.
Jewish ancestors of European royalty and nobility?

it would certainly be a smart career move for an ambitious Jew to convert to Christianity back in medieval times. In each generation only a tiny proportion of Jews would convert, willingly or otherwise, but though the centuries the population descended from converted Jews would increase.

As I remember, the newer noble families in late medieval Castile included some descended from wealthy and important converted Jews of Toledo. If that is the case being descended from Castilian royalty means being descended from their ancestors in the Castillian nobility including converted Jews.

Here is the claimed descent from Mohammed in the first post:

Elizabeth II, Queen of the UK - daughter of
George VI, King of the UK - son of
George V, King of the UK - son of
Edward VII, King of the UK - son of
Victoria, Queen of the UK - daughter of
Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn - son of
George III, King of Great Britain - son of
Frederick, Prince of Wales - son of
George II, King of Great Britain - son of
George I, King of Great Britain - son of
Sophia, Electress of Hanover - daughter of
Elizabeth of Bohemia - daughter of
James I/VI, King of England, Ireland & Scotland - son of
Mary, Queen of Scots - daughter of
James V, King of Scots - son of
Margaret Tudor - daughter of
Elizabeth of York - daughter of
Edward IV, King of England - son of
Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York - son of
Richard of Conisburgh, Earl of Cambridge - son of
Isabella Perez of Castille - daughter of
Maria Juana de Padilla - daughter of
Maria Fernandez de Henestrosa - daughter of
Aldonza Ramirez de Cifontes - daughter of
Aldonza Gonsalez Giron - daughter of
Sancha Rodriguez de Lara - daughter of
Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara - son of
Sancha Alfonsez, Infanta of Castile - daughter of
Zaida (aka Isabella) - daughter of
Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad, King of Seville - son of
Abbad II al-Mu'tadid, King of Seville - son of
Abu al-Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad, King of Seville - son of
Ismail ibn Qarais - son of
Qarais ibn Abbad - son of
Abbad ibn Amr - son of
Amr ibn Aslan - son of
Aslan ibn Amr - son of
Amr ibn Itlaf - son of
Itlaf ibn Na'im - son of
Na'im II al-Lakhmi - son of
Na'im al-Lakhmi - son of
Zahra bint Husayn - daughter of
Husayn ibn Hasan - son of
Hasan ibn Ali - son of
Fatima - daughter of
Muhammad (pbuh)
Sir Walter Blount (died 1403) married Sancha de Ayala, and the Queen's alleged descent from Mohammed is also sometimes traced though the Blount-Ayala marriage. I believe that I read about the Jewish ancestry of some Castilian nobles in a discussion of the ancestry of Sancha de Ayala - if correct that would prove Queen Elizabeth II's Jewish ancestry.

I read somewhere that during Renaissance times the doctrine of purity of blood became important in Spain and that some Spaniards criticized the royal family for having Jewish ancestors. In a biography of Louis XIV his dark looks were explained as being due to the Jewish ancestry of his royal Spanish ancestors. One legend about the origins of the Habsburg Dynasty had them descended from the Pierleoni family of Rome, descended from a converted Jew. The Nazis use that theory in anti Habsburg propaganda. I guess that many or most Italian nobles are descended from the Pierleoni and thus from Jews, and probably most of European royalty and nobility too.

And here is a link to the alleged descent of Elizabeth II from the T'ang Dynasty of China mentioned in a previous post.

https://royalcello.websitetoolbox.com/post/Tang-Dynasty-ancestry-of-British-Royalty-4858043

Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)

Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)

Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)

Sharwin I

Karim

Shahriyar I

Qarin

Abul Melik

Surkhab

Abul-Hamza

Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)

Abu Sahl Hamazasp III

Derenik

Katchik I

Hasan

Abul Gharib

daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron)

Hetum II

Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin


Guy d'Ibelin


Alix d'Ibelin m. Hugh de Lusignan

Jacques I 


James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon


Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)


Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433


Louis


Peter


Marie m. Francis Bourbon


Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise


Mary m. James V of Scotland


James VI


Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria


Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover


George I


George II


Frederick


George III


Edward


Victoria


Edward VII


George V


George VI


Elizabeth II
 
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Nov 2010
7,170
Cornwall
#73
Jewish ancestors of European royalty and nobility?

it would certainly be a smart career move for an ambitious Jew to convert to Christianity back in medieval times. In each generation only a tiny proportion of Jews would convert, willingly or otherwise, but though the centuries the population descended from converted Jews would increase.

As I remember, the newer noble families in late medieval Castile included some descended from wealthy and important converted Jews of Toledo. If that is the case being descended from Castilian royalty means being descended from their ancestors in the Castillian nobility including converted Jews.
It's more complex but certainly more serious than 'might convert'. In the anti-jewish persecutions around 1390-1415 a large part of the jews in Christians Spain converted to Christianity - in theory. Or rather, were baptised. So one can conclude they were under some severe pressure.

The situation eased off until the reign of Ferdinand and Isobel. At that time - and this was not disimilar to what the Visigoths constantly faced - there were radical jewish leaders who made it their business to reconvert conversos - bearing in mind now they would be second or third generation. The problem cane to a head in Sevilla, where the jewish leaders were particularly radical, prompting the severe action against them and the eventually expulsion (or covert) order from Ferdinand. So you could deduce that some of it was self-inflicted.

From here christianity took even more radical turns and during the Limpieza de Sangre period your employment and status was in severe jeopardy if you couldn't prove 5 generations of clean, christian blood - uncontaminated by other faiths. Even something like a Portuguese-sounding name could throw a little suspicion as similar to jewish (EG Balboa in the Alatriste books).

But as always it was who you know, which makes what you say true for some people. Some jews just disappeared into high society, just as the richer muslims did after Granada, with the all-pervading corruption contradicting the severe laws!

Quite famously 'Franco' was a name often adopted by jewish conversos. I don't think anyone really knows whether these people had a rocky ride through the early modern era or not.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#74
.....

And here is a link to the alleged descent of Elizabeth II from the T'ang Dynasty of China mentioned in a previous post.

https://royalcello.websitetoolbox.com/post/Tang-Dynasty-ancestry-of-British-Royalty-4858043
Moyenhur aka Bayanchur Khan aka El-Etmish Bilge Khagan married princess Ningguo in 758 and died in 759, as it seems without descenence by his wife Ningguo. I don't know about a Bayanue. Is there any source or reliance? I only know her name from the family of Bernd Josef Jansen, a great work, but full of "errors". The following persons are as well not safe concerning their descendence. So it seems it is more a fabricated family tree, than a scientific one.
 
Dec 2018
1
The world
#75
I'm aware this is thread necromancy but I've noticed that people who strongly push the likelihood of Elizabeth II and some her predecessors being descended from Muhammad rely on the argument that Zaida is the daughter of Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad, who is a descendant of Muhammad.

So here's begins contradiction, there isn't much info about Zaida prior to her marriage with Alfonso IV. How can she be Al-Mu'tamid's daughter if she was married to his son, Abu Nasr Al'Fath al-Ma-mun, prior to being widowed? the mere fact that Abu Nasr and his relation to her exists presents a problem for that argument. Several websites mention that Christian sources claim she is Mu'tamid's daughter, whereas Islamic sources disagree with that. Personally, I agree with the Islamic sources in this. Zaida, not being the prophet's descendant simply blows away all speculation of any descendance from Muhammad.

In regards to Abu Nasr RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Newell, Eisendrath, Rosenberg, Witmondt, Waag, Stanley, Guyon, Moatti, Bitoun, Le Baut

Al-Mu'tamid Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad | Revolvy <-- Zaida being his daughter-in-law is mentioned here as well.
 
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MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,525
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
#77
I think part of the issue with supposed links to famous people from ancient history is that some medieval or Renaissance nobles claimed these links. But of course just because some 16th Century blue blood said his family line stretches back to say Constantine the Great, does that mean we should believe it? I take those claims as seriously as Julius Caesar's claim of descent from Venus, or Alexander's descent from Zeus.
I wonder why everyone always talks about Caesar's claimed descent from Venus, even Caesar himself. The royal family of Troy was, like most characters in Greek myths, supposedly descended from Zeus/Jupiter, the King of the Gods. It seems to me that for ambiitous power seekers descent from Zeus/Jupiter, the King of the Gods, is much more important than descent from any other god who was a subject of Jupiter.
 
Aug 2010
15,041
Welsh Marches
#78
Caesar was supposedly descended from Aeneas, who was borne by Aphrodite (Venus) to Anchises, a member of the junior branch of the Trojan royal family; this was felt to be a more direct and distinctive connection than any ultimate descent from Zeus.
 
May 2015
42
Schertz ,Tx
#79
Look, as Balian says, everyone is related everyone. I think this is someone's fairy tale.And still haven't figured out how most europeans are related to Charlemagne. My father is german.Relatives of his in Nuremberg keep the family history book, and my cousin Ludwig there had a family tree done. In the state archives in Hamburg, they have a copy of our family history book , plus that of other families. So maybe I am related to Charlemagne. I could also say I'm a distant relative of Atilla the Hun and Ghengis Khan as well as Mohamed. Why, because my mother was hungarian. Ghengis Khan and his hords made inroads I believe into Europe somewhere along the line, plus everyone knows the Ottoman turks invaded Hungary,Austria, Romania,etc. at various times over the centurires, so that makes more sense than the Queen being some relative of the Prophet.
 

Sindane

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,600
Europe
#80
I don't see how most people would be descended from Charlmagne or the often mentioned Edward III (I think it's that Edward?) and so on.

What about social class? You had the mass of peasants plodding about in the fields and then the, tiny by numbers, aristocracy. Why would they ever meet, let alone marry and have children together? People married within their own class. Pedigree Collapse happened within your own class
 

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