The REAL First Settlement in North America Debate

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,969
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Vikings

This is from the Smithsonian Institution website:

"But in 1960, undeniable proof of Vikings in North America came to light at L’Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, Canada. Several Norse Viking pieces and clear Icelandic- style house foundations gave proof positive that Vikings had indeed landed, and briefly settled, in North America 500 years before Columbus."

Archaeologists Spy New Viking Settlement From Space | Smart News | Smithsonian

This one is from Smithsonian Magazine:

"More than a thousand years ago, a group of Vikings became the first European explorers to settle North America. It wasn't until the 1960's when archaeologists discovered the remains of this Viking colony in northern Newfoundland."
They are wrong there were no Viking settlers in North America. Instead there were mainly Norwegian settlers in North American, with a few ethnically from other Scandinavian lands.

There was a viking occupation - that of pirate or sea raider - but no Viking ethic group.

Calling all dark age Scandinavians Vikings is as accurate as calling all 17th Century British, French or Dutch people Buccaneers.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,969
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
This threads seems quite messy in what could be a simple theme.



The knowledge of the Norsemen seems to have been lost and only “recently” rediscovered by the Academia when reanalyzing the Sagas, but as I stated before, it seems that they didn’t leaved much traces behind, and even that the number of voyages was quite limited.
The Greenland colony had a population of hundreds or thousands for several centuries. And Greenland seems to be as much a part of the North American continent as Newfoundland. If you discount Greenland as part of North America why count Newfoundland as a North American settlement at all?

I say that Lief Ericksson was not the first leader of a European settlement in North America. His father Eric the Red was.

Martin76 wrote:

Tulius,

I can accept your theory and I agree with you. So Nordic don´t discover anything. If tomorrow we find a phoenican ship in America.. it doesn´t mean Phoenica discovered America.

Where are the Nordic heritage? where the Nordic exploration? the fortress? the maps? the coins? The DNA? if I write the USA Cattle in Texas etc came from Spanish cows (from Andalusian cows).. I can prove through DNA...
Where are the Nordic presence in North America?

You are very moderate and well informed. You always write base on great knowledge.. So.. May I ask you... Do you think the world knew America through "Nordic" or through Spain-Hispania (Castille-Portugal-Aragon-Leon)?
When the French and English kings read about America... Did they read what Nordic wrote or what the Spaniards were writing?

regards.
And the Greenland settlements in North america were well known in Europe.
 
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Sep 2012
1,140
Tarkington, Texas
Pruitt,

We can speculate that all these Fishermen had to land in one island of the American Continent. But do we have any evidence? Archaeological or a written source or…?

If we don’t have evidence… we can’t say that they visited those isles.
The islands of Sable, Miquelon and St Pierre are still being used by fishing fleets. I also think the Norse settlements in Iceland and Greenland could have been visiting. We have found evidence that Native Americans were also using the islands for seasonal fishing. The problem with furnishing "evidence" is then the naysayers start up tearing it apart. Another problem is who wants to do archaeological studies on any of the three islands? Are there any shallow areas around the three islands? The sea has risen in the last 1000 years.

Pruitt
 
Sep 2012
1,140
Tarkington, Texas
I did a little digging and St Pierre has been used for Fishing Camps for over 8000 years. They only mentioned Beothuk and Paleo Eskimos. Sable Island has no trees and is unstable so it would not be a good place to cure fish. The sea level rise would cut out many spots to dig. Look at Oak Island!

Pruitt
 
Mar 2017
130
US
They are wrong there were no Viking settlers in North America. Instead there were mainly Norwegian settlers in North American, with a few ethnically from other Scandinavian lands.

There was a viking occupation - that of pirate or sea raider - but no Viking ethic group.

Calling all dark age Scandinavians Vikings is as accurate as calling all 17th Century British, French or Dutch people Buccaneers.
The Smithsonian Institution is wrong?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,983
Portugal
The Greenland colony had a population of hundreds or thousands for several centuries. And Greenland seems to be as much a part of the North American continent as Newfoundland. If you discount Greenland as part of North America why count Newfoundland as a North American settlement at all?

I say that Lief Ericksson was not the first leader of a European settlement in North America. His father Eric the Red was.
Agreed.

But like in Vinland those settlements didn’t flourish, even if it appears that there are more traces of the Norsemen presence there.

The islands of Sable, Miquelon and St Pierre are still being used by fishing fleets. I also think the Norse settlements in Iceland and Greenland could have been visiting. We have found evidence that Native Americans were also using the islands for seasonal fishing. The problem with furnishing "evidence" is then the naysayers start up tearing it apart. Another problem is who wants to do archaeological studies on any of the three islands? Are there any shallow areas around the three islands? The sea has risen in the last 1000 years.

Pruitt
I did a little digging and St Pierre has been used for Fishing Camps for over 8000 years. They only mentioned Beothuk and Paleo Eskimos. Sable Island has no trees and is unstable so it would not be a good place to cure fish. The sea level rise would cut out many spots to dig. Look at Oak Island!

Pruitt
Pruitt,

We are in a history forum, in a non-speculative thread. Or we have evidences or not. It is not a question of “naysayers” or “yessayers”. Saying that we don’t have sources because they are hard to find… that can be said for many regions of the world, but it is not an historical argument. It is a question of sources, history raw material.

If we don’t have sources – we can’t say for sure.

If we say without sources – we are speculating, or on the best, raising an un-sourced hypothesis. In this later case it should be backed with further data.

The Smithsonian Institution is wrong?
Calling them Vikings is inaccurate. Vikings are Norsemen raiders/pirates.
 
Jun 2017
2
Canada
So I would consider La Isabella to not be the first permanent settlement because it was destroyed by a hurricane I know the settlers didn't know this was possible but nonetheless it was permanent.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,672
Spain
Sorry how does this prove that Scandinavian people did not sail to North America and establish settlements?

Are you claiming they were incapable of sailing to North America?
I want evidences, Kevin... evidences...

Have you got official records for your "legendary" vikings in North America? Not 19th Century Propaganda, not Anglo-saxon Propaganda, not Pan-Germanist Propaganda.. but official Nordir records...

If I say, Texas (or California) belonged to Spain... I can write, I can do photos with OFFICIAL records from those days.. original records in Archivo General de Indias (Indies General Archive) in Seville...
Can you do a photo with ORIGINAL official records from your beloved Vikings in Texas? Iowa? Illinois? Wisconsin? New York? New Hampshire?

Please.. not lucubrations.. a simple official record written by a officer of the Great Viking Empire in North America? If you have.. please write here...

Not "Germanic" Theory....but Realities...
i can say.. Spaniards were the first European to be in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Noth Carolina, Virginia, Illinois, Colorado, Utah, Alabama, Arkansas etc etc... and I can prove with papers... You say vikings the first one...
Have you got the papers?

If I say, Spaniards built Forts and Fortress in North America... in Arkansas (or in North Carolina or in Tenessee) it is not a 19th Century racial Theory as the viking one... it is a REALITY.. I can send photos, archaeological remains still exist... pictures drawn by contemporanean etc etc...
Can you write here the list of the Viking Forts in North America? a Contemporanean picture?
If I say.. Spaniards were the first European to built a Fort in Neah Bay, today Seattle, Washington... it is not a Racial Elucubration about Germanic myths over "Fantastic" vikings in North America.. it is a fact proved by contemporanean sources...

If I say, the oldest Cattle in USA was original from Spain... I can prove... Can your DNA analysis to prove Cattle was brought to North America by your "legendary" Vikings and not by the Spaniards...

DNA prove long horn Texas cow.. didn´t come from "Sweden" or "Norway" or "East Prussia" but from Andalusia, Spain...



If I say, Spaniards (not viking and the great Racial Germanic Myth) broutght horses to North America... I can prove... Can you prove horses were introduce by the Germanic Warriors?

The modern horse was re-introduced to the Americas by Spanish explores. The earliest horses to reach North America were of Spanish origin (And DNA PROVED)




I know, I know many swedish inmigrant (and Norwegian.. remember, Norge was one of poorest country in Europe till 50´s in 20th Century and the oil) settled in North America and in Wisconsi (not explored by them, of course). I know, I know many yankees have their ancestors in Sweden...
but this is one thing and other very differet to falsify history and invent one for consumer taste in 2017.. not dear, not dear...
The Exploration of North America (by order) belongs to Spain-France-UK-Netherland...
Not to invent "Swedish" in Nebraska (or in New York) sooner than Spaniards (or Portuguese). and not say, you can prove how the Nordic print in North America is as evident as the Spanish one.

How many swedish Spaniards found in Noth Carolina in 16th Century? And in Ohio River? Maybe in Michigan? When Spaniards took possetion of Michigan... how much "nordic" they found there?
If i say not even ONE... do you believe in me or not? :cool:
 
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Sep 2012
1,140
Tarkington, Texas
If you accept DNA evidence, what do you say about Maine Coon Cats coming from Norway to Maine? There is no human evidence of someone bringing them to Maine. Maine was not an area settled by Norwegian emigrants. There have been some reports I have read that Appaloosa Horses may actually not have come from Spain.

Pruitt
 

PragmaticStatistic

Ad Honorem
Mar 2011
2,060
Florida
It seems as thought the chief criteria used by the OP is whether or not a settlement is permanently settled. As in still in existence and inhabited since its initial establishment. If that is the criteria, then St. Augustine, FL is it.

Which is different that the title question of the topic which is what was the First Settlement in North America? Thus the question asked is not supported by the criteria applied.
 
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