The REAL First Settlement in North America Debate

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,879
Portugal
These people would have had some fairly old settlements too: Mound Builders - Wikipedia
Ups, I had forgotten those. I have read something about the “Mound Builders”, I had the idea that this kind of works were built during centuries and were made by several cultures, those cultures didn’t had permanent “settlements”. Not sure. Quite far from my usual readings. But the entry you posted seems to indicate otherwise. Some of those cultures clearly seem to predate the Olmecs.

We also have more recent are the settlements, such the ones of the Pueblo People (Ancestral Puebloans - Wikipedia), and others in that area, such as Sinagua Sinagua - Wikipedia or the ruins in Sonora (+/- 700 years), or Indian Mesa Indian Mesa - Wikipedia

Anyway, the OP was clearly referring to post-Colombian European settlements.
 
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LatinoEuropa

Ad Honorem
Oct 2015
5,222
Matosinhos Portugal
No Portuguese “butthurt” here. The first to discover America were the one that came from Siberia. The Norse discovered and lost it. Other pre-Columbian voyages may had happen but they didn’t had any impact in the history, so we say that Columbus discovered it (for the Europeans). He established the link.

If by any chance we will find that pre-Columbian voyages existed, I doubt that we will have to revaluate much, since they were sporadically or lost (like the ones of the Norse). If we find a Phoenician, Roman, Portuguese or other shipwreck or material evidence it will not add much. A Portuguese pre-Columbian material evidence may only give a wider explanation of the reasons that the Portuguese king D. João II didn’t accepted Columbus plan.





I think that the OP was talking about post-Colombian Europeans. As for pre-Columbian cities, it is out of my area, but I think that the Olmec cities predate the cities around the Lake Texcoco.
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Tulius - A Portuguese pre-Columbian material evidence may only give a wider explanation of the reasons that the Portuguese king D. João II didn’t accepted Columbus plan.


Easy to see, America had already been discovered by the Portuguese, and King D. João II of Portugal wanted to keep it secret, similar happened with Australia the Portuguese discoveries were kept secret . A problem Portugal, to have little population in the era of the Portuguese discoveries.and Portugal had the largest empire in the world, if it had more population, but Portugal was a bigger country than it is today.


Tulius - Fácil de ver,América já tinha sido descoberta pelos portuguêses,e o Rei D.João II de Portugal quiz manter em segredo,aconteceu similar com Austrália as descobertas portuguêsas eram mantidas em segredo.Um problema Portugal, ter pouca população na era dos descobrimentos portuguêses e Portugal tinha o império maior do mundo,se tivesse mais população,como tambem Portugal era um país maior do que é hoje.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,939
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Mr. Hall should have said, and perhaps did say, that Jamestown was the first permanent English settlement in North America.

As to La Isabella, it deserves a mention in the same way that Roanoke deserves a mention in the history of English colonization attempts, but Santo Domingo deserves the full credit. History does not remember those who try, only those who succeed. ..
So what you are saying is that history records the names of the winners of every battle, and every war, and every election, but not the losers.

So history remembers Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall and Crow King, and the other Sioux and Cheyenne leaders at the Little Bighorn, but not any of the losers?

So history remembers the USA, the USSR, the UK, France, China, etc., and their leaders like Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill, De Gaulle, Chiang Kai-chek, but doesn't remember which powers they defeated in World War Two, or the names of the losing leaders?

So history records that the Republican Party's presidential candidate, Ronald Reagan, won the 1980 US presidential election, but doesn't remember the name of the opposing candidate or his political party?
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,939
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Jamestown Virginia is the first permanent English settlement in North America and it is the only one we need to know because from this small settlement that began on the 14th of May 1607. we have founded the greatest portion of this earth that man has ever known.

From simple beginnings we have saved the world from 2 World Wars and numerous financial and political battles. Jamestown is indeed the greatest of all European settlements in the New World.

This settlement is responsible for two things. It is responsible for the founding of the greatest nation in the history of the world; the United States of America and it is responsible for the true beginnings of the English, you notice I do not say British, empire.

For the United States of America we only need to remember Jamestown. Jamestown, Virginia is the heart and soul of the United States.

From this small settlement bleeds the essence that is the American spirit.

There are others that did come before Jamestown but none that are more important. Jamestown is the foundation of the way of life that North Americans enjoy every day in their lives.
Jamestown is the single most important thing that has ever happened to the western hemisphere. You can object all that you like but it is the single unifying event that developed the United States of America into the single most important country that the world has ever known.

Everything you say false to is unjustified because the foundations of the American Spirit began in the Southeast corner of Virginia on that faithful day on the 14th of May in 1607.

I believe that it is the day that God ordained to be the savor of the world.
Jamestown is not the foundation of the USA - which is not the question in the OP anyway.

In 1630 there were very few European settlers in continental North America north of the Rio Grande. There were a few hundred Spanish in Florida, a few hundred Spanish in New mexico, A few hundred English in Virginia, a few hundred settlers of various ethnic groups in New Netherlands colony, a few hundred English in Plymouth Plantation colony (Pilgrims), a few hundred English in Massachusetts Bay colony (Puritans), a few hundred French in Canada, and maybe a few hundred more settlers in northern islands like Newfoundland.

Then, in 1630, Puritans from England began their Great Migration to the Massachusetts Bay colony, which brought about 20,000 colonists to Massachusetts by 1640. By 1640 English colonists greatly outnumbered all colonists of other nationalities in continental North America north of the Rio Grande, and only something very unusual, such as massive immigration by other nationalities, could have prevented eventual English cultural dominance of North America north of the Rio Grande.

Jamestown and Virginia are not the heart and soul of the United States, nor the beginning of the American Spirit. The best parts of the American spirit began in the Pennsylvania colony founded in 1682.

Jamestown is the beginning of ruthlessly exploiting workers, and of selling deadly dangerous addictive products for profit. Jamestown is the foundation of the dark side of the American spirit.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,879
Portugal
Easy to see, America had already been discovered by the Portuguese, and King D. João II of Portugal wanted to keep it secret, similar happened with Australia the Portuguese discoveries were kept secret.
It is a possibility. But we don’t have materiel evidence for that.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,939
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
According to this list: List of North American settlements by year of foundation - Wikipedia

the oldest settlement in continental North America is Tlapacoya in Ixtapaluca, Mexico, dating to about 7500 BC, and the next oldest is Tepoztian, in Morelos, Mexico, dating to 1500 BC, and so on.

It lists the oldest settlement in the USA as Cahokia, Illinois, c. AD 600 to c. AD 1300. Since Cahokia has not been continuously occupied until the present, it counts more as the first or oldest known settlement in the USA.

It lists L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland as the oldest European settlement in the Americas c. 1003. But Erik the Red established the first European settlements in Greenland about 985, and Greenland is usually considered to be part of the Americas and of North America. If the Island of Greenland is excluded from the Americas, why not exclude the island of Newfoundland, the Island of Hispaniola, the island of Manhattan, etc.?

The next oldest settlement in the USA is Oraibi, Arizona, USA, continuously occupied since c. 100, and thus the oldest settlement in the USA. Next oldest in the USA is Acoma Pueblo, the "Sky City", founded 1144.

The first post Norse European settlement in the Americas and North America was La Navidad, Haiti founded by Columbus in 1492 and destroyed in 1493. But since it was on an island it might not count to some.

The next European settlement in the Americas and North America was La Isabela, Dominican Republic, founded by Columbus in 1493 and abandoned in 1496. But since it was on an island it might not count to some.

The next European settlement in the Americas and North America was Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, founded by Columbus in 1496 and the oldest European city in the Americas & in North America. But since it is on an island it might not count to some.

The first European settlement in what is now the USA was Caparra, Puerto Rico, occupied from 1508 to 1521. But it is not still occupied and might not count to some. But since it is on an island it might not count to some.

Nombre de Dios, Colon, Panama, is the oldest European city in continental North America, founded in 1510.

The oldest continuously occupied European settlement in what is now the USA is San Juan, Puerto Rico, founded in 1521. But since it is on an island it might not count to some.

The first European settlement in the continental USA was San Miguel de Gualdape, Georgia, USA, founded in 1526 and abandoned after 3 months.

The oldest continuously inhabited European settlement in the continental USA is Saint Augustine, Florida, founded in 1565.

The oldest continuously inhabited English settlement in North America is St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada. But since it is on an island it might not count to some.

So the Roanoke Colony c. 1585-1590 was preceded by many others. But since it was on an island it might not count to some.

And Jamestown, founded in 1907, is even more of a johnny-come-lately as European settlements in North America go. Since Jamestown was abandoned by the 1750s, it doesn't even count as the first permanent English settlement in North America.

Hampton, Virginia, founded in 1610, is the oldest continuously occupied English settlement in continental North America.
 
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Aug 2018
524
Southern Indiana
If anyone visits there, Hopi do not like their photos taken. There are a couple spots where a picture can be taken but not many.
Cool place to visit. I've got a weird story about it. I stopped there on a trip back east and was in a "drive-away" car. I was trying to be respectful and modest. At the top of the mesa, I accidentally hit the car horn and was embarrassed at this "loud intrusion", I felt like I had probably pissed off the spirits that watch over that place. We walked around and had a nice time, but the horn thing still bothered me. We left the mesa and about a half hour later the wheel literally fell off of the car (bad bearings) while we were going about 50 mph along the desert highway. It was like the kachinas were getting retribution for the intrusion.
 
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