The root of European Chivalry : this article claim an arab influence

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,104
Portugal
#11
South France was next to Spain. How did Aragonians and Asturians of late 10th century conduct their civil and external wars, and what did they think of Peace and Truce of God?
Still is. The Christian kingdoms (including the “Aragonese”; “Aragonians” reminds me something from the “Lord of the Rings”) in the Iberian Peninsula begun to suffer quite soon the influence of the Order of Cluny, colliding often with the Visigothic-Hispano-Roman-Mozarabic rites.

Many warriors who fought at the early reconquista (liberation of northern Spain and Portugal) were in fact knights from France. The concept of chivalry passed by this way;
Or with the pilgrims and troubadours. There was quite an intense cultural contact between Provence and the Iberian Peninsula: Troubadour - Wikipedia

By the way, I have the same reserves as johnincornwall to use the term “liberation”, and even if the term “reconquista” is quite used in historiography, the prefix “re” is mostly mythical.

However the basic fact is the original population of Asturias and Aragon, for example, then Leon, was minimal. This was supplemented with French immigrants (and others), ultimetaly driven by the whole 'Santiago' thing (convenient discovery eh?) - Aragon in the 11th century was about 60,000 max for example. Most of the 'Spanish' population was in the southern two thirds (and muslim)
Side note: do you have any study about the quantity of the French (and northern European) migration to the Christian kingdoms? A estimate or something, or that underlines the height of that migration? Because I have a different idea here, that that migration was not that significant. In numbers. Even if we had the people that the monks from Cluny and others (Benedictines… and later from Cister) brought to the peninsula.

Inspite of what one might think, it seems that the author exists, but his name is ... Vicente Blasco Ibáñez - Wikipedia:)

The quote appears a couple of times, and it's said it's by him.On the other hand, I didn't found where he said it.

God, I have how generalised became quotes without referencing them!
Abanese is Ibáñez? Did he change the name from Spanish to Arabic than to English? What kind of transliteration did Habeeb Salloum used?!! Well Vicente Blasco Ibáñez isn’t exactly obscure, even if I never read anything from him. And that name “adaptation” doesn’t help much Salloum’s “article”, as the lack of further references, maybe he saw it online. It would be interesting to see the context of Ibáñez’s quote (if he really said that), after all there are many Spanish and French Arabists that underline many Arab and Muslim influences in the Iberian Peninsula, as it is natural due the time that they stayed around.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
13,786
Europix
#12
It would be interesting to see the context of Ibáñez’s quote (if he really said that),
Honestly, I looked for it for almost an hour. I have to admit I gave up: I'm not that interested in the subject ...

Anyway, be it "Abanes" (unlikely) or Ibáñez (possible), the simple fact that the quote isn't sourced is telling a lot on author's methodology.
 
May 2019
11
North America
#13
For all the naysayers - before judging on quotes and sources - Salloum's article is correct, verified and reliable. Although many 'westerners' attempt to circumambulate the origins of Arab contributions to world civilization, these contributions in all disciplines CANNOT BE DENIED.
Abanese is Vincente Blasso Ibanez, a prolific Spanish journalist and writer - in his "l'Ombre de la Cathedrale' he writes: "C'est parmi les Arabes espagnols qe naissant l'esprit chevaleresque, cet esprit que se sont approprie plus tard les guerriers du Nord, comme s'il etait une qualite des nations chretiennes." (204)

Further, another 'westerner' gives the same credit to the Arabs in formulating the basis of European chivalry - Dr. Gustave Le Bon in his 'La Civilisation des Arabes" writes: "De meme, que la chevalier que celui qui possedait les dix qualites suivantes: "la bone, la valeur, l'amabilite, le talent, poetique, l'eloquence, la force, l'adress a monter a cheval, l'habilete a monter la lance, l'epee et l'arc." (286)

When one chooses to belittle an established author and his writings, think again and do your own research and God willing, Salloum will continue to provide to the world that which has been chosen to be ignored or hid away - all to avoid giving credit where credit is due.
 
May 2019
11
North America
#14
Hello I would know your opinion about this article (in two part)

Chivalry Today - Don't just Talk Chivalry. Live It.
Chivalry Today - Don't just Talk Chivalry. Live It.

This paper make reference about an orientalist author (Titus Burckhardt) who claim that :

"European chivalry of the Middle Ages was learned from the Spanish Moors. Burckhardt maintains that the glorification of women and the depiction of noble knights with their many virtues came about as a result of the impact of the Arab qualities in battles, literature and daily lives"

In resume that article state that romantic chivalry as pursued in medieval Europe is nothing more than the continuation of al-furusiyyah al-arabiya (a concept of arab "knighthood") .To prove that, the author of the paper cite an obscure Spanish writer, Abanese, who wrote :

"Europe had not known the arts and practices of knighthood before the arrival to Andalusia of Arabs with their knights and heroes; a logical hypothesis in that chivalry had not been known to the Greeks and Romans. This offshoot of the chivalrous life of the Arab and Muslim conquerors in the Iberian Peninsula, both in theory and manner, was never outdone by the European Christians."


I made many research and I didn't find any papers or records about an Abanese. I don't even think he existed lmao. Of course this article is in total contradiction with majority of historical studies (and of course all my college professors) about chivalry and it's roots. There are even contradiction into this article by claiming in it's second part that greek and roman didn't know the concept of "chivalry" and at the same time by claiming in it's first part that we can find parallels to chivalry with the Seven Knightly Virtues in the writings of Aristotle. But maybe Aristote was arab and muslim, since everyone and everything come from Arabs for the orientalist historians.

It seem to be a very biased article in total contradiction with the majority of medieval scholar and with obscur sources (Burckhardt is an esoterist/metaphysician, muslim convert, who is not historian)



For all the naysayers - before judging on quotes and sources - Salloum's article is correct, verified and reliable. Although many 'westerners' attempt to circumambulate the origins of Arab contributions to world civilization, these contributions in all disciplines CANNOT BE DENIED.
Abanese is Vincene Blasso Ibanez, a prolific Spanish journalist and writer - in his "l'Ombre de la Cathedrale' he writes: "C'est parmi les Arabes espagnols qe naissant l'esprit chevaleresque, cet esprit que se sont approprie plus tard les guerriers du Nord, comme s'il etait une qualite des nations chretiennes." (204)

Further, another 'westerner' gives the same credit to the Arabs in formulating the basis of European chivalry - Dr. Gustave Le Bon in his 'La Civilisation des Arabes" writes: "De meme, que la chevalier que celui qui possedait les dix qualites suivantes: "la bone, la valeur, l'amabilite, le talent, poetique, l'eloquence, la force, l'adress a monter a cheval, l'habilete a monter la lance, l'epee et l'arc." (286)

When one chooses to belittle an established author and his writings, think again and do your own research and God willing, Salloum will continue to provide to the world that which has been chosen to be ignored or hid away - all to avoid giving credit where credit is due.
 
Mar 2018
655
UK
#15
For all the naysayers - before judging on quotes and sources - Salloum's article is correct, verified and reliable
Pray tell us, how do you know if Salloum's article is correct without judging its sources? If you have a reliable method for telling the truth of something without analysing its provenance then share it with the world, you will revolutionise the study of history and much beyond it!

As for the quotes that you give, can you trace them back to primary sources? If not, it's just the opinion of some people. Argument by authority is not a good argument. But the rest of your post makes it clear that you want the original article to be true, and therefore believe it to be true. A very common cognitive bias and one of the hardest to beat.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,104
Portugal
#16
For all the naysayers - before judging on quotes and sources - Salloum's article is correct, verified and reliable. Although many 'westerners' attempt to circumambulate the origins of Arab contributions to world civilization, these contributions in all disciplines CANNOT BE DENIED.

Abanese is Vincene Blasso Ibanez, a prolific Spanish journalist and writer - in his "l'Ombre de la Cathedrale' he writes: "C'est parmi les Arabes espagnols qe naissant l'esprit chevaleresque, cet esprit que se sont approprie plus tard les guerriers du Nord, comme s'il etait une qualite des nations chretiennes." (204)

Further, another 'westerner' gives the same credit to the Arabs in formulating the basis of European chivalry - Dr. Gustave Le Bon in his 'La Civilisation des Arabes" writes: "De meme, que la chevalier que celui qui possedait les dix qualites suivantes: "la bone, la valeur, l'amabilite, le talent, poetique, l'eloquence, la force, l'adress a monter a cheval, l'habilete a monter la lance, l'epee et l'arc." (286)

When one chooses to belittle an established author and his writings, think again and do your own research and God willing, Salloum will continue to provide to the world that which has been chosen to be ignored or hid away - all to avoid giving credit where credit is due.
Hello Andalus, I see that is your first post, welcome to Historum. And thanks for finding Vicente Blasco Ibáñez quote (you have some typos on his name). I will see it.

I don’t think that anybody here denied the Arab contributions to our current civilization. And certainly that can’t be denied in the Iberian Peninsula that had a direct Arab influence there, I already had strong changes of opinions here in this forum defending that. And I say again that you will find many Spanish and French (Lévi-Provençal) Arabists stating that. One Spanish historian, Américo Castro even had strong disputes with the medievalist Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz due to the influence of the Arabs and Jews in Spain. It is a well know dispute. Those guys knew what they were talking about.

But Salloum “article” is incorrect in a few things. To begin with the name of the author that he quoted. If Salloum is an established author, I don’t know, but I know that he needs to improve his references. Quoting Deaf Tuner: “the simple fact that the quote isn't sourced is telling a lot on author's methodology.”
 
May 2019
11
North America
#17
Pray tell us, how do you know if Salloum's article is correct without judging its sources? If you have a reliable method for telling the truth of something without analysing its provenance then share it with the world, you will revolutionise the study of history and much beyond it!

As for the quotes that you give, can you trace them back to primary sources? If not, it's just the opinion of some people. Argument by authority is not a good argument. But the rest of your post makes it clear that you want the original article to be true, and therefore believe it to be true. A very common cognitive bias and one of the hardest to beat.

1. the two quotes I gave are primary sources, both authors - . in each one of their books.

Perhaps it would be best to read the primary sources in Arabic that elaborate on the contributions of Arab civilization to that of the western one. It appears that Salloum has - As for Burkhart who is cited, he is well-known for his writings - what sources are you talking about - Muru’ah and the Code of Chivalry? - basic ARAB History 101 -
I use Salloum's article when I teach -
 
May 2019
11
North America
#18
Hello Andalus, I see that is your first post, welcome to Historum. And thanks for finding Vicente Blasco Ibáñez quote (you have some typos on his name). I will see it.

I don’t think that anybody here denied the Arab contributions to our current civilization. And certainly that can’t be denied in the Iberian Peninsula that had a direct Arab influence there, I already had strong changes of opinions here in this forum defending that. And I say again that you will find many Spanish and French (Lévi-Provençal) Arabists stating that. One Spanish historian, Américo Castro even had strong disputes with the medievalist Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz due to the influence of the Arabs and Jews in Spain. It is a well know dispute. Those guys knew what they were talking about.

But Salloum “article” is incorrect in a few things. To begin with the name of the author that he quoted. If Salloum is an established author, I don’t know, but I know that he needs to improve his references. Quoting Deaf Tuner: “the simple fact that the quote isn't sourced is telling a lot on author's methodology.”
 
May 2019
11
North America
#19
Thanks for your input. Agree, sources (bibliography) should be there but apparently as I see it, the article was pulled from al-Hewar which is a layman's online journal. I am very familiar with Salloum's writings in which everything needed to be cited is sourced. This may have been an article that was written for a layman audience. He writes many academic works and from what I have read, everything needed to be 'sourced' is.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,104
Portugal
#20
Thanks for your input. Agree, sources (bibliography) should be there but apparently as I see it, the article was pulled from al-Hewar which is a layman's online journal. I am very familiar with Salloum's writings in which everything needed to be cited is sourced. This may have been an article that was written for a layman audience. He writes many academic works and from what I have read, everything needed to be 'sourced' is.
Ok. Have you an idea how Vicente Blasco Ibáñez, a well known Spanish writer, as you say (is book is here: https://www.amazon.fr/lombre-cathédrale-BLASCO-IBANEZ-Vincente/dp/B004XM9KNE), was transformed in Abanese, an unknown name? It gives us a bad first impression about Salloum, and there are now second first impressions.

Your mentioned to Gustave Le Bon and his 'La Civilisation des Arabes" raised my interest. He is a 19th century author and so his work is freely available online at the Université du Quebec: Gustave Le Bon, La civilisation des Arabes (1884).

But I still didn’t got the quoted part, and that raised me a question, since the quote is out of context (you also didn’t provide translation to English as it is requested by the forum rules): Gustave Le Bon is quoting or paraphrasing from other work?

EDIT:

"Moorish Culture in Spain" by Titus Burckhardt is also avaiable online at archive.org:
https://ia800101.us.archive.org/11/items/MoorishCultureInSpain/Moorish Culture in Spain.pdf
 
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