The root of European Chivalry : this article claim an arab influence

Mar 2019
52
Belgium
#21
Inspite of what one might think, it seems that the author exists, but his name is ... Vicente Blasco Ibáñez - Wikipedia:)

The quote appears a couple of times, and it's said it's by him.On the other hand, I didn't found where he said it.


God, I have how generalised became quotes without referencing them!

He's not an historian but an journalist/politician known for his anticlerical view, so his statements are already biased (like for every writer from the 19 century and the half part of the 20 century). None of these sources cited in the article are tenable. We have what? An anticlerical journalist, an metaphysician, a spiritist, an anti christian who converted to islam. I think that the theory of reptilian root of the chivalry is more credible (if this theory exist ;)) for me. No academics take seriously that Arabian theory.
 
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May 2019
11
North America
#22
Ok. Have you an idea how Vicente Blasco Ibáñez, a well known Spanish writer, as you say (is book is here: https://www.amazon.fr/lombre-cathédrale-BLASCO-IBANEZ-Vincente/dp/B004XM9KNE), was transformed in Abanese, an unknown name? It gives us a bad first impression about Salloum, and there are now second first impressions.

Your mentioned to Gustave Le Bon and his 'La Civilisation des Arabes" raised my interest. He is a 19th century author and so his work is freely available online at the Université du Quebec: Gustave Le Bon, La civilisation des Arabes (1884).

But I still didn’t got the quoted part, and that raised me a question, since the quote is out of context (you also didn’t provide translation to English as it is requested by the forum rules): Gustave Le Bon is quoting or paraphrasing from other work?

EDIT:

"Moorish Culture in Spain" by Titus Burckhardt is also avaiable online at archive.org:
https://ia800101.us.archive.org/11/items/MoorishCultureInSpain/Moorish Culture in Spain.pdf
 
May 2019
11
North America
#23
He's not an historian but an journalist/politician known for his anticlerical view, so his statements are already biased (like for every writer from the 19 century and the half part of the 20 century). None of these sources cited in the article are tenable. We have what? An anticlerical journalist, an metaphysician, a spiritist, an anti christian who converted to islam. I think that the theory of reptilian root of the chivalry is more credible (if this theory exist ;)) for me. No academics take seriously that Arabian theory.
 
May 2019
11
North America
#24
I believe Fusilleur, 'everyone is biased' when they right and one labels someone biased usually, when one does not agree with what a person says/wrote. Ibanez has his opinion and you have yours. this is the stuff history is made - there are two sides and both can be analysed and both can be written about. It's ok to take someone's opinion once in a while because, it's nice to hear the 'other side' as opposed to the general lingua franca of western historiography.
 
May 2019
11
North America
#25
In the famous words of Colin Powell - so what? He's well read and well-written - when someone is out of the square it's ok to take his/her opinion esp. when you know that truth lies behind it. I am an academic and I take it seriously.
 
May 2019
11
North America
#26
Pray tell us, how do you know if Salloum's article is correct without judging its sources? If you have a reliable method for telling the truth of something without analysing its provenance then share it with the world, you will revolutionise the study of history and much beyond it!

As for the quotes that you give, can you trace them back to primary sources? If not, it's just the opinion of some people. Argument by authority is not a good argument. But the rest of your post makes it clear that you want the original article to be true, and therefore believe it to be true. A very common cognitive bias and one of the hardest to beat.

1. the two quotes I gave are primary sources, both authors - . in each one of their books.

Perhaps it would be best to read the primary sources in Arabic that elaborate on the contributions of Arab civilization to that of the western one. It appears that Salloum has - As for Burkhart who is cited, he is well-known for his writings - what sources are you talking about - Muru’ah and the Code of Chivalry? - basic ARAB History 101 -
I use Salloum's article when I teach -
 
May 2019
11
North America
#27
I believe I put Le Bon in ( I just noticed I missed a line) but the trans. should be along the lines of "Along the same lines (as Christian chivalry), Arab chilvalry possessed the following characteristics: generous and kind, value, amiability, talent, poetry, eloquence (in speech), strength, the ability to mount a horse, the skill of casting the spear, the sword a = and the bow (By the way, the chivalry I speak of here is what is called in Arabic 'muruu'a - the code of ethics for an Arab man that dates back to the pre-Islamic among the Arab tribes)
 
Nov 2010
7,666
Cornwall
#28
Side note: do you have any study about the quantity of the French (and northern European) migration to the Christian kingdoms? A estimate or something, or that underlines the height of that migration? Because I have a different idea here, that that migration was not that significant. In numbers. Even if we had the people that the monks from Cluny and others (Benedictines… and later from Cister) brought to the peninsula.
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Not en masse. I plucked that 60,000 figure for Aragon recently from a Historia de Navarra I'm currently wading through (one of those big ones) for when Aragon was tiny and subject to Pamplona (Navarra) etc.

But it stands to reason that there was a point when tiny Asturias and the north coast strip were all that remained not muslim, quite swiftly followed by the Spanish March, mostly with low population. Always the vast majority of Roman population was down south in La Betica, Visigothic power was also centred mainly around the same area (and Toledo).

Below the fledgling Asturias formed a no mans land. As these areas were re-populated over centuries there was no population to do it - so immigration had to be the key. Even in the 1100s when much of modern Aragon and the Ebro region ceded town by town to Alfonso El Batallador and Jaime I and II - they desperately needed the muslim population to work the fields. There would over time be some reverse conversion but there weren't many people there.

It was all filled up by a sort of rolling immigration. But I guess documentary evidence is mainly related to the Camino de Santiago and French 'services' springing up all along that. Merchants, villagers etc

But ultimately the population of Christian 'Spain' started off tiny.
 
Likes: Tulius
Nov 2010
7,666
Cornwall
#29
For all the naysayers - before judging on quotes and sources - Salloum's article is correct, verified and reliable. Although many 'westerners' attempt to circumambulate the origins of Arab contributions to world civilization, these contributions in all disciplines CANNOT BE DENIED.
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Who's denying anything? No idea what you are arguing about.

I'm just saying the whole 'chivalry' thing is of romance, poetry and post story-telling nonsense in a world short on entertainment. Not about the political powderkegs, betrayals, blood, guts and slaughter of medieval 'Spain'
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,635
#30
South France was next to Spain. How did Aragonians and Asturians of late 10th century conduct their civil and external wars, and what did they think of Peace and Truce of God?
Occitan southern France was a lot closer to northern Spain than it was to northern France at the time.

The Occitans also had their own chivalric concept, of "paratge". Like all these chivalric concepts it has similarities with the north French "chevalerie" (clearly pointing out horsemen as involved) but it was its own thing.

The south had was part of a linguistic and cultural continuum from northern Spain to northern Italy. The region in the 10-11th c. was actually in a good spot, as a nexus for international trade (from the Med up along the Rhône northwards, and through the river valley corridor westwards to the Atlantic). So southern France was relatively speaking free-trade, urban, and multi-cultural, not just heretics were tolerated, but both Jewish and Muslim communities. (One of the gripes against the southernerners when launching that crusade in 1209 was the the southern towns must stop electing Jews for public office.) The "chevalric" north France otoh was based on large, self-sufficient rural estates ruled over by a warrior class so conscious of its own distinctness, their attitude to commoners at times bordered on racial determinism.
 

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