The Spanish Armada

Jul 2019
850
New Jersey
It is a Dutch one indeed. The perception here was that this would be the knock out blow of the Dutch revolt. In stead "a divine wind" intervened. I guess we borrowed it from the Japanes.
The phrase is borrowed from Moses's song at the Red Sea, from the Book of Exodus.
 
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Feb 2011
1,143
Scotland
Exacty.... they lost about 10.000 dead... and of course, nobody celebrated any victory in 1588.
Losses overwhelmingly due to neglect by English authorities and disease, not in battle.
England celebrated a Thanksgiving service in St Pauls on 20th August 1588.
It wasn't victory in the war of course; but England/Netherlands had taken that round.
As you quite correctly say, there was a very long way to go.
 
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Feb 2011
1,143
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Paradoxically, Drake family related to Malbourough's house (Spencer line) and settled in the Spanish West Indies about 1750.
The Drakes became rich with the sugarcane trade in Cuba .. but in 1797, the head of the Drake House, James Drake (1736 - 1838) he lived for 102 years !!! He decided to settle in Spain (in Madrid). His parents were William Drake and Mary Spencer. he married Carlota Núñez del Castillo ̶ daughter of Carlos Núñez del Castillo, marquis of San Felipe and knight of the order of Santiago and count of Castillo with Grandee of Spain.

When marrying a Great of Spain, the Drake entered fully into the high Spanish nobility. In 1893, Alfonso XIII throught his mother, Queen Mary Christian of Habsburg and Lorena, Drake were ennobled with the title of Marquis of Cañada Honda (a population in Cuba).
From Pirates and protestant origins, they became rich in Cuba and in few years, they married with the best Spanish Aristocracy families (Nuñez Castillo, Cerda, Eguaras, Vega Mar, Medinaceli etc)...

In 1936, Drake males were exterminated by the REDS ... a Cheka killed each Drake male... including a 16 yo boy named Rafael Drake y Santiago.

If the Pirate Francis Drake raised his head and saw his family become Spanish aristocratic Catholics ... he dies of a heart attack!
That's really interesting, thank you Martin! I always enjoy your putting of a Spanish view of these actions.
 
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Feb 2011
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Well, in 1588 nobody celebrated any victory....1588 only was famous with British jingoism during Victorian Period... and most from second part in 19th Century... but not in 1588... not Te Deum at all in 1588...

And not.. sorry but few passionated patriots in 2019 in this forum... can´t win (despite their insistence) a war finished in 1604 that was not an English victory at all. I can see many threads open about 1588... but not even one about the Anglo-Spanish War (1585 - 1604)... it is funny... it would be equivalent to speak about a battle in 1939 - 1945 but never about the war.

Sorry.. but in 1588 (or in 1604) not jingoism at all.... no industrial revolution or a wealthy bourgeoisie that exhibited its opulence to the world .... 1588 is not 1888 ... we are not facing that poor frustrated little man who was in life the naughty "leather apron"...

It is true... my dear writers in this thread...the Amphibious operation in 1588 failed....but the same was done that of 1589... and I can´t see any British (or any other Saxon) open thread about the "1589 disaster...".. I will wait.... in a confortable chair!... because for sure nobody will open... What does it happen? 1588 yes but 1589 not? Who wants to hide anything? 1589 is not enough good to write a movie script? to open a thread here?

Both disasters (yes, yes... 1588 as 1589)..... well, both disasters were similars...in both (yes, yes, in both) there were enormes losses. Spanish Armada suffered around 11.000 casualties, in addition there were 2.000 dead from disease in Lisboa and other Spanish harbours before operation begun...between these last casualties.. the best spanish naval commander: Don Álvaro de Bazán, Marquis of Santa Cruz.

1588 and 1589 had comparatively low number of casualties in action (KIA-WIA).. yes Corunna and Lisboa were not Gallipoli... but Channel actions were not the battle of Leyte...most of the Spanish and English casualties were caused by disease.. English casualties in 1588 are counted between 8.000 to 10.000 dead most because Queen´s decision crews remained on board in port because she feared Spanish Fleet came back again...

Engish casualties in 1589 in Corunna and Lisboa were around 20.000 (between them 12.000/15.000 dead) (most caused by disease again)...

Not me:

"the number who los their life... during the Anglo - Spanish conflict was not much less than 45.000. One third of them were Spanish and two-third English"

What happened in 1588, though distorted, appears in the most basic of timelines, while the events of 1589 are passed over the even in the most comprehensive of the texts (this forum is one example).

A large number of them (Spanish and English) left their bones at the bottom of the sea, sowing the depths witht the undoubted greatness of the intrepid men who dared to defy the oceans, even if it was to fight among themselves.

In memory of those who fought and die in the long war between Spain and England (1585 - 1604).






Both will die before the war ends.
We enjoyably debated much of this in this thread- effects of the Spanish Armada wins

Why not start a thread yourself on aspects of 1589 which interest you? I'm sure you will find a lot of interested participants.

You are quite correct- all of the losses were sad and regrettable loss of life. Thank you for the superb portraits.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
The English army may have been small, but remember they would have been fighting for their homes and families. This would have given them a marked advantage over the numerically larger Spanish army. In addition, the English certainly would have known the terrain better than the invaders. Making guerrilla warfare a deadly possibility for the invaders.
Well... as it was proved in Cornwall.... English Army was not rival for Spanish one.... Juan del Águila landed in Cornwall he took Penzance, Mousehole, Newly, and Paul... and he easily defeated Cornish militiamen...outnumbered his troops.

Sincerely...30.000 Spaniards (or 100.000 as the original project)... was too much for English Army in 16th century. And it is not necessary to say some members of the English, Cornish and Irish nobility regarded Philip II as a King of England!

Spanish Troops in Expedition: 400
Spanish troops landed in Cornwall: 200
Spanish casualties: 0 KIA, 0 WIA

English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men).. but they just run away as soon as they watched "infantes de Marinas" (Royal Marines) to approach them.

The base of the English Army in the Island was the non-effective and unskillful Militia....So.... I can´t imagine how few militamen are going to stop Parma, Verdugo, Águila, Coloma, Lechuga etc... men have done the War not only his job but the reason for their lifes... soldiers from their prime age...

By other side.... I can´t imagine guerrilla warfare in England... not "psycology" for that kind of warfare (as not German Guerrilla at all in 1945, or in 1806 or in 1813, or in 1757 or in 1618)... Guerilla in Europe is for Hispania (Spain and Portugal), Balkan (all of them) and Russia and in certain grade for Italy and Poland. (For me Greece also is Balkan).

We don´t know what would have been done by English Army (Divagation).. but I think they would have avoided the decisive battle.... as the Dutchmen in Low Countries..and they would have tried to resist in fortified towns. But it is only my divagation... . as it didn't happen we don't know what it would be.
Of course, as divagation you are free to think few militamen are going to crush Tercios Viejos and Infantería de Marina.. you are free to think that.. and both are right....because... that campaign never took place...

And now my opinion why thousands English soldiers (in fact, Cornish Militiamen) run away when they saw few Spanish Marines...I don´t think it was only because as it was described by Carew as they were "a bunch of cowards"...being, as Thucydides said, man is the same everywhere and at all times ...I think what happened that day... and because English soldiers run away... because those Cornish militamen run and run it was those soldiers were victims of the own English Propaganda.. as Argentinian soldiers were victims of the ARgentinian propaganda in 1982...

As the Spaniards has been demonized by the English war propaganda... as kind of Attila, Bloddy barbarians... named "Southern Demons"... when they saw those 200 Marines approching....they should not see men, but demons ... Luciferian legions marching on them ... and fled abandoned their officers and throwing their weapons ...

And no... nobody defended their houses or their families.

Why did so few people help to fight the Spanish soldiers?
 
Feb 2017
256
Devon, UK
When I said 'here we go again' earlier in this thread it wasn't just because the subject had been discussed before, it was because I knew we'd end up with yet more posts like the one above. What the Spaniards faced was not 'English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men)' but 500 or so local barely trained militia, with very few guns. I've no idea where these other inflated numbers come from. And yes they did defend their houses and families but there's not a lot you can do against a naval bombardment with a pike and a sword apart from head for the hills.

So here is a more accurate account of the Mount's Bay Raid (including some commentary on the sources) West Penwith Resources - The Spanish Attack - 1595

And as we're talking about 'propaganda' let's at least make it fun propaganda.
 

pikeshot1600

Ad Honoris
Jul 2009
10,009
When I said 'here we go again' earlier in this thread it wasn't just because the subject had been discussed before, it was because I knew we'd end up with yet more posts like the one above. What the Spaniards faced was not 'English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men)' but 500 or so local barely trained militia, with very few guns. I've no idea where these other inflated numbers come from. And yes they did defend their houses and families but there's not a lot you can do against a naval bombardment with a pike and a sword apart from head for the hills.

So here is a more accurate account of the Mount's Bay Raid (including some commentary on the sources) West Penwith Resources - The Spanish Attack - 1595

And as we're talking about 'propaganda' let's at least make it fun propaganda.
Not one of Christopher Lee's better roles. :p
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
When I said 'here we go again' earlier in this thread it wasn't just because the subject had been discussed before, it was because I knew we'd end up with yet more posts like the one above. What the Spaniards faced was not 'English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men)' but 500 or so local barely trained militia, with very few guns. I've no idea where these other inflated numbers come from. And yes they did defend their houses and families but there's not a lot you can do against a naval bombardment with a pike and a sword apart from head for the hills.

So here is a more accurate account of the Mount's Bay Raid (including some commentary on the sources) West Penwith Resources - The Spanish Attack - 1595

And as we're talking about 'propaganda' let's at least make it fun propaganda.

Oh dear Evans.... Galleys didn´t use so much cannons... only one each galley. By other side your link didn´t change what I wrote.. in fact it is very similar to other sources... but it is very mediocre....because this conclusion:

Conclusion : All the accounts of this raid are all based on Carew’s written account in his “Survey,” and this is based on what Francis Godolphin told Carew. It may all be 100 percent accurate, It may all be 100 percent accurate, but keep an open mind
What a level... Virgin Mary!!!! How devils I am going to take in serious a guy wrote All the accounts of this raid are all based on Carew’s written account in his “Survey,” and this is based on what Francis Godolphin told Carew. For sure the author of these words.... it is not....how to say.... Albert Einstein...not even Benny Hill...please, a charitable soul ... a being of light that explains to that chive ... that War ... like Love ... is a matter of Two!

So.... IT IS FALSE.. the only account was written by Carew... simply no truth.... Spaniards were there... and as Johnincornwall... knows... Spaniards wrote everything....we have the OFFICIAL DOCUMENT... Record... wrote by Captain Amésquita... not 7 years later.. but at the moment... in the night....and the records are not in the Moon.. but in Naval Archives!!!

The expedition was a punishment operation because English support to France. Expedition sailed from Blavet: 4 Galeys and 400 marines belonged to Tercio Don Juan del Águila (3 Co) under command Captain Don Carlos de Amésquita. Galleys belonged to Pedro de Zubiaur´s Galleys Squadron. Galleys were Nuestra Señora de Begoña, Salvador, Peregrina and Bazana. Expediton sailed near Penmarch where they sunk an English Merchant ship (French ship with English crew).

August 2nd, 1595, Spaniards landed in Mousehole. There.. they were guided by a English Catholic Her Majestic´s Royal Navy Captain a Richard Burley. one group consisted by 30 Marines under command Don León de Ezpeleta and Major sergeant Don Juan de Arnica scouted the area whilst the galleys bombed Mousehole.
Mousehole was taken without resistance and without the presence of English troops. 3 Englishmen were killed during the naval bombing... every house in Mousehole was fired.. save a pub, the Keigwin Arms.

In Mousehole there is (or was) a plate about this fact:

Squire Jenkyn Keigwin was killed here 23 July 1595 defending this house against the Spaniards.

Keigwin likely died during the bombing.. because Marines didn´t find resistence in Mousehole. Another scouting group (consisted by 200 marines) went forward till Paul. The village was put on fire and 100% houses burnt. In this operation were killed 4 neighbors and few others were made POW and sent to the galleys.

Next day, August 3rd.... Expedition arrived to Mounts Bay.. Spaniards landed and took Newlyn that was fired. Until this moment the Spaniards had not found any defense, but this was going to change soon since, when they advanced to Penzance, they met the English anti-invasion Force, a 500 Cornish militamen, who were already alerted and ready for defense.These militiamen were led by Francis Godolphin, who was Deputy Lord Lieutenant.

The Spaniards landed on the wide beach and it is here when the English soldiers (Cornish Militamen) realized that what they had in front of them were Infantes de Marina (Marines). A not very good enemy. Even so, the militiamen (they cannot be denied bravery) attacked convinced of their numerical superiority (Naval Historian Fernandez Duro wrote around 1.300 militamen in 19th Century... Spanish records estimated enemy troops over 500.... Spaniards were only 200 Marines landed. Marines hold the formation while a 30 men --detachment charged against a large part of the militia that tried to flank them by surprise. From the galleys they realized that the militiamen could overwhelm the small group of Spaniards who faced them and shot at Cornish militiamen.
At that time the Marines counterattacked by making prevail their superiority of fire. And in th is moment... as it is written in Spanish Records and English version....The English Forces...fled in panic! the left their officers, weapons... everything... and they run away... 100 Cornish soldiers took refuge in Marazion.

Godolphin must have paled because only he and a dozen men left the battlefield with the idea of offering some kind of resistance later. Then Spaniards took Penzance without any kind of opposition. 400 houses were burnt and 3 ships sunk. Fernández Duro says that in that town Marines also took a fort that was in the harbour.
Francis Godolphin tried to gather the men, but they fled again. In his inform, the Spanish Captain, Don Carlos de Amésquita wrote:

In this town we have just burn more than Four hundred houses, some peripheral villages and three ships that were loaded with wine and other goods. The mosque (Yes he wrote the Mosque.. not different for him between an Arab and an English heretic) was not burned because Captain Richard Burley, an English knight of her Majesty´s Royal Navy, said Catholic mass has been celebrated into it before. Fray Domingo Martínez, Chief Chaplain in the galleys, wrote two phrases in English language to declare the reason because we are not going to burn the mosque (...). This done, our men went to another town called Newlyn, putting it on fire as well as all the outlying houses.
Ciudad de Penzace, a 3 de agosto de 1595.


Spanish Army casualties were 0 KIA and 0 WIA.... in his official inform, English infantry´s skills did not impress the veteran Marines .... in fact they considered them, despite their initial courage, one of the easiest soldiers to defeat of how many had fought in their lives

Para la ciudad de Penzance, si la gente hubiera estado con Sir Francis Godolphin, que se comprometió muy dignamente, se habría salvado; pero la milicia lo abandonó por completo, salvo cuatro o cinco caballeros. (Don Carlos de Amésquita).

(For Penzance, if the people had been with Sir Francis Godolphin, who committed himself very worthily, they would have saved the town; but the militia abandoned him completely, except for four or five gentlemen.).



Someone should tell that Albert Einstein wrote that rubbish ... that the War in a matter of two ... and therefore there are 2 SOURCES OF INFORMATION ... ALWAYS..

Regards.

200 marines.... I can´t guess... 30.000 soldiers or 100.000 as it was planned by Álvaro de Bazán.