The Spanish Armada

Feb 2017
256
Devon, UK
Pardon my 'mediocre' link, in spite of the fact that it earlier says 'It is worth remembering that almost all the details of this raid in Mount’s Bay in 1595 comes originally from Richard Carew’s “Survey of Cornwall.” [Carew 1602] ' and later goes on to also quote a Spanish source. But one sloppy choice of words apparently discounts all the factual detail, so be it.

And I didn't know that 'Galleys didn´t use so much cannons ... only one each galley' that's interesting. Even so 'the galleys bombed Mousehole' as you quote.

None of that answers the main point of my earlier post, where does your figure of 'English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men)' come from? None of the sources English or Spanish mention that, so where did you get it from?
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,872
Cornwall
Well... as it was proved in Cornwall.... English Army was not rival for Spanish one.... Juan del Águila landed in Cornwall he took Penzance, Mousehole, Newly, and Paul... and he easily defeated Cornish militiamen...outnumbered his troops.

Sincerely...30.000 Spaniards (or 100.000 as the original project)... was too much for English Army in 16th century. And it is not necessary to say some members of the English, Cornish and Irish nobility regarded Philip II as a King of England!

Spanish Troops in Expedition: 400
Spanish troops landed in Cornwall: 200
Spanish casualties: 0 KIA, 0 WIA

English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men).. but they just run away as soon as they watched "infantes de Marinas" (Royal Marines) to approach them.

The base of the English Army in the Island was the non-effective and unskillful Militia....So.... I can´t imagine how few militamen are going to stop Parma, Verdugo, Águila, Coloma, Lechuga etc... men have done the War not only his job but the reason for their lifes... soldiers from their prime age...

By other side.... I can´t imagine guerrilla warfare in England... not "psycology" for that kind of warfare (as not German Guerrilla at all in 1945, or in 1806 or in 1813, or in 1757 or in 1618)... Guerilla in Europe is for Hispania (Spain and Portugal), Balkan (all of them) and Russia and in certain grade for Italy and Poland. (For me Greece also is Balkan).

We don´t know what would have been done by English Army (Divagation).. but I think they would have avoided the decisive battle.... as the Dutchmen in Low Countries..and they would have tried to resist in fortified towns. But it is only my divagation... . as it didn't happen we don't know what it would be.
Of course, as divagation you are free to think few militamen are going to crush Tercios Viejos and Infantería de Marina.. you are free to think that.. and both are right....because... that campaign never took place...

And now my opinion why thousands English soldiers (in fact, Cornish Militiamen) run away when they saw few Spanish Marines...I don´t think it was only because as it was described by Carew as they were "a bunch of cowards"...being, as Thucydides said, man is the same everywhere and at all times ...I think what happened that day... and because English soldiers run away... because those Cornish militamen run and run it was those soldiers were victims of the own English Propaganda.. as Argentinian soldiers were victims of the ARgentinian propaganda in 1982...

As the Spaniards has been demonized by the English war propaganda... as kind of Attila, Bloddy barbarians... named "Southern Demons"... when they saw those 200 Marines approching....they should not see men, but demons ... Luciferian legions marching on them ... and fled abandoned their officers and throwing their weapons ...

And no... nobody defended their houses or their families.

Why did so few people help to fight the Spanish soldiers?

Too much for the English army Martin? How much of the English army do you think was sitting around villages at the back end of Cornwall on the offchance that the Spanish landed? A few old men militia I think you'll find.

Much the same as Devereux's capture of Cadiz in 1596, where they let the population out, sacked it then burned it. Quite similar except you might expect a key and easily fortifiable base like Cadiz to be better garrisoned than the tiny villages of Paul and Mousehole in Cornwall! :lol:
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
Pardon my 'mediocre' link, in spite of the fact that it earlier says 'It is worth remembering that almost all the details of this raid in Mount’s Bay in 1595 comes originally from Richard Carew’s “Survey of Cornwall.” [Carew 1602] ' and later goes on to also quote a Spanish source. But one sloppy choice of words apparently discounts all the factual detail, so be it.

And I didn't know that 'Galleys didn´t use so much cannons ... only one each galley' that's interesting. Even so 'the galleys bombed Mousehole' as you quote.

None of that answers the main point of my earlier post, where does your figure of 'English (Cornish Militamen) forces: many (between 1.500 to l3.000 men)' come from? None of the sources English or Spanish mention that, so where did you get it from?
Your link was interesting and value.. but I didn´t like the conclusions.... because about Cornwall raid we need to read both sources: English and Spanish. By other side.. not very different between both versions... Cornish militamen attacked and they fled (as likely I would have done if I would have been a Cornish militamen)... 200 Marines Vs 500 militiamen is as in 2019, 200 British Royal Marines vs 500 Somali pirates....Sincerely... I can´t imagine 500 Cornish militiamen beating 200 Infantes de Marina.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
Too much for the English army Martin? How much of the English army do you think was sitting around villages at the back end of Cornwall on the offchance that the Spanish landed? A few old men militia I think you'll find.

Much the same as Devereux's capture of Cadiz in 1596, where they let the population out, sacked it then burned it. Quite similar except you might expect a key and easily fortifiable base like Cadiz to be better garrisoned than the tiny villages of Paul and Mousehole in Cornwall! :lol:
Well, dear John.... Too much for the English Army because English army lacked of numbers, quality, experiences and Skills Spanish army proved in Germany, Low Countries, France, Italy, Balkan, Greece, Mediterranean scenarios etc...

Geoffrey Parker wrote about that... if Spanish army landed... they were march on London through Kent...they were looking for the decisive battle.... as in Alcantara, in Pavie, Muhlberg, Saint Quentin or in Cerignola...
After Jemmingen, Glemboux... Dutchmen learnt to avoid the open battlefield and to make a siege war...Geoffrey Parker wrote English couldn´t to make a siege war as Dutchmen.. because English Fortress were weak, not modern and not designed for a late 16th Century War.... it is truth... Spanish invasion army lacked of Siege train!.. but they were thinking storming the fortified position.

Cadis in 1596 was not Cadis in 1796 (that´s because Nelson failed in Cadis).... the main Spanish harbour (and the main harbour in the world) was Sevilla... and nobody attacked Seville from 1248 to 1810 (Soult).. but when Soult arrived... Seville harbour was not the old harbour because from 18th Century.... the main harbour was Cadis... as you well know...

And Sincerely... 200 infantes de marinas... 0 casualties... it is a great feat.

About Cornwall...it was a chance to become a Spanish Province.. sorry.. the Kingdom of Cornwall inside the Crown of Spain...and Don Phillip as King of Cornwall...

You agree with me.. History is not a English movie.... Cornish nobility was not a "British great patriot"... nothing as "Britannia ruled" or "Liverpool never walk alone"... in fact... Cornish Catholic Nobility saw Don Felipe as the natural lord.. the King... not loyalty at all to the Pirate Queen! they wanted Felipe crowned as King of Cornwall...

And yes. a Spanish army consisted by 6.000 men they would have taken Cornwall or if you prefer they have driven English Army out. Cornwall would have been a Kingdom into the Crown of Spain... Cornish nobility would have sworn to Don Philip as king and Felipe would have sworn the privileges, old laws and rules of the kingdom... Cornish language would have been used in administration as Italian in Lombardy or French in Artois...of course, Heretics would have been expelled from Catholic King´s lands!



Devon and Cornwall as Spanish provinces (not written by a Spaniard.. but by a Cornish nobility man) addresed to King Don Philippo...

Dear John... you know a lot about Spanish Medieval History.... Cornish and "Devonshire" in 1597 weren´t the same as in 1967 or 1897.... So... for sure Cornish Nobility are not going to defend a Pirate Queen (and I can´t imagen Cornish people as " British Patriots" in 1595.... and if 6.000 Spaniards would have landed.. Cornish catholic nobility is going to be with the King! (and Nobility means people).

De presente status Cornubis et Devoniae...

So, I will finish to say.. compare English Army and Spanish one in 1595 is as to compare Venezuelan Army and USA Army in 2019.

Regards
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
But all these Spanish plans came to naught because of....
;)
Not Spanish plans... Devon and Cornwall plan... dear.... we can´t change history and not because England... i am afraid... Sincerely.... I doubt Don Filipo... the man reigned in Amsterdam and Milano... in Lens, Dunkerke, Mexico, Santiago de Chile, Bombay, Florida, Brazil, Chittagont, Ormutz, Mombassa, Recife, Acapulco, Manila or Formosa.... were really interested in Devon and Cornwall...For what? Was Devon richer than Potosí ? Did Cornwall have more silver mines than Zacatecas?

Of course.. if 1588 would have worked... it would have been organized the Kingdom of Cornwall and Devon in the Crown of Spain as Sicily, Duchy of Milan or States in Tuscany...but in 1595 I can´t see Philip organizing a invasion force to conquer Cornwall and Devon...

So.... sorry my dear Belgarion.... History is not a pub (and not a movie).... and the Planet King.... was not interested in England at all...if England would have not attacked Spain.... Planet King would have not attacked England.

And not.. England DIDN´T win the war...
 
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Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
From conquering the Kingdom of England, to taking a bizarre pride in being able to conquer a small corner. How the mighty aspirations have become closer to reality, obviously not historical reality but rather a self-assured speculative reality.

This thread is one of the most entertaining, and I was just starting to tire of our own little conquistador.
 

pikeshot1600

Ad Honoris
Jul 2009
10,009
But all these Spanish plans came to naught because of....
;)
Heart of Oak dates from the Seven Years War, so the RN at that time was much different from the few ships of 1588 (I recall the RN had about 34 or 35 ships). The Armada was not a bad outcome for England in that other "wonderful year."

However, the White Ensign is one of the coolest flags of all time! And I hope the Union Jack never disappears from it.
 
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pikeshot1600

Ad Honoris
Jul 2009
10,009
From conquering the Kingdom of England, to taking a bizarre pride in being able to conquer a small corner. How the mighty aspirations have become closer to reality, obviously not historical reality but rather a self-assured speculative reality.

This thread is one of the most entertaining, and I was just starting to tire of our own little conquistador.
Don Filipo conquered Mousehole for Espana! :D

("Planet King" sounds like a character from Flash Gordon.)
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
From conquering the Kingdom of England, to taking a bizarre pride in being able to conquer a small corner. How the mighty aspirations have become closer to reality, obviously not historical reality but rather a self-assured speculative reality.

This thread is one of the most entertaining, and I was just starting to tire of our own little conquistador.
Are you tallking the letter I put in this forum is a fake news? I was sending a answer to JohninCornwall... but as you are in this issue too... I will say to you

the goal never was the kingdom of England but to stop English attack and English supported to rebels in Low Countries...HISTORICAL REALITY.... was the raid in Cornwall... and 0 casualties... Historial Reallity is the letter sent by Cornish Noble man to Catholic King... as Every people from USA can prove because Original letter is in Library of Congress...

Funny ... as you I was just starting to tiree of these little pirates who continually are opening 1588 thread .. when they neither won the war nor were they able to defeat Real Armada in naval actions. nor threw the Spanish troops from Flanders (or anywhere).


Regards