The strange case of undesirable terrorists that cannot be deported

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,765
#1
In France there are a dozen such individuals from Algeria and elsewhere... They have been in jail and set free once their jail term was over.... They are undesirable but cannot be expelled because the european courts will not allow it, as they would face the death penalty in their country of origin...

Once freed from jail they are typically sent to a smallish city and required to report to the authorities on a daily basis (which did not keep some of them from escaping including to Syria, since they are not under round the clock surveillance).... since they have no source of income they typically receive some sort of allowance from the state...

In a more serious case , one such suspect jumped surveillance and murdered a priest

2016 Normandy church attack - Wikipedia

One of the attackers was identified as Algerian-born 19-year-old Adel Kermich. Kermiche, who lived in Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray, had twice in 2015 attempted to travel to Syria. He was once returned by Germany, and once turned back by the authorities at the Turkish border. As a result, he spent time in a French jail before being released in March 2016. Kermiche was released after writing to the judge "I am a Muslim based on the values of mercy, kindness (...) I am not an extremist," and insisting that he recited his prayers twice a day and "wanted to see his friends and marry". The prosecutor opposed his release. Upon his release, he was electronically tagged and a curfew was placed on him, requiring him to live at his parents' home, which was near the church, and to leave his house only between 08:30 to 12:30 and 14:00 to 18:0

France is not the only country with such a headache

Concern as Swiss parliament backs plan to deport terrorists

However, in a tight vote, the Swiss senate this week voted in favour of a controversial motion that would allow convicted members of terrorist groups like so-called Islamic State (ISIS or IS) to be deported even in cases where they face persecution in their home country.
That vote came after the lower house of the Swiss parliament also backed the proposal



The 2016 motion came in response to a case in which several Iraqi citizens were convicted of planning a terrorist attack in Switzerland but could not be deported after completing their prison terms as they faced torture or even death sentences.


Convicted Islamic terrorist cannot be deported from Ireland, Supreme Court rules - Independent.ie

the matter should be considered again by the new Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, taking into account “up-to-date information” on whether there was a threat the man would be subject to inhuman or degrading treatment if he was to be returned to Algeria.

Bid to deport six terror suspects blocked after UK judges cite torture fears in Algeria

Bid to deport six terror suspects blocked after UK judges cite torture fears in Algeria


Britain Overruled on Abu Qatada, a Terrorism Suspect

The European Court of Human Rights ruled Tuesday that Abu Qatada, a radical Islamic preacher regarded as one of Al Qaeda’s main inspirational leaders in Europe, cannot be deported from Britain to his native Jordan because his trial there would be tainted by evidence obtained by torture.
The preacher, whose real name is Omar Mahmoud Mohammed Othman, is in prison in Britain and has been convicted in his absence in Jordan of planning two bombing attacks.


Belgium fails to deport convicted terrorist to Morocco

The individual in question entered Belgium in 2004 as a result of a family reunification. Twice he was convicted: first on drugs offences later for abetting a terrorist outfit for which he is still in jail. The immigration department had wanted to deport him, but he appealed. The council for alien law litigation ruled that there were insufficient guarantees to ensure that he would not face an inhumane or humiliating treatment in Morocco. The Belgium immigration department couldn't guarantee that the man wouldn't be tortured. That's a right guaranteed by a European treaty and thus the prisoner cannot be deported.

What should be done with these individuals ? Is it fair that the population at large has to

1- foot the bill
2- be put at risk ?

Why is there more concern for these fine gentlemen than for an Assange or a Snowden ?
 
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Likes: Futurist

Angelica

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,749
Angel City
#3
In France there are a dozen such individuals from Algeria and elsewhere... They have been in jail and set free once their jail term was over.... They are undesirable but cannot be expelled because the european courts will not allow it, as they would face the death penalty in their country of origin...

Once freed from jail they are typically sent to a smallish city and required to report to the authorities on a daily basis (which did not keep some of them from escaping including to Syria, since they are not under round the clock surveillance).... since they have no source of income they typically receive some sort of allowance from the state...

France is not the only country with such a headache

Concern as Swiss parliament backs plan to deport terrorists

However, in a tight vote, the Swiss senate this week voted in favour of a controversial motion that would allow convicted members of terrorist groups like so-called Islamic State (ISIS or IS) to be deported even in cases where they face persecution in their home country.
That vote came after the lower house of the Swiss parliament also backed the proposal



The 2016 motion came in response to a case in which several Iraqi citizens were convicted of planning a terrorist attack in Switzerland but could not be deported after completing their prison terms as they faced torture or even death sentences.


Convicted Islamic terrorist cannot be deported from Ireland, Supreme Court rules - Independent.ie

the matter should be considered again by the new Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, taking into account “up-to-date information” on whether there was a threat the man would be subject to inhuman or degrading treatment if he was to be returned to Algeria.

Bid to deport six terror suspects blocked after UK judges cite torture fears in Algeria

Bid to deport six terror suspects blocked after UK judges cite torture fears in Algeria


Britain Overruled on Abu Qatada, a Terrorism Suspect

The European Court of Human Rights ruled Tuesday that Abu Qatada, a radical Islamic preacher regarded as one of Al Qaeda’s main inspirational leaders in Europe, cannot be deported from Britain to his native Jordan because his trial there would be tainted by evidence obtained by torture.
The preacher, whose real name is Omar Mahmoud Mohammed Othman, is in prison in Britain and has been convicted in his absence in Jordan of planning two bombing attacks.


Belgium fails to deport convicted terrorist to Morocco

The individual in question entered Belgium in 2004 as a result of a family reunification. Twice he was convicted: first on drugs offences later for abetting a terrorist outfit for which he is still in jail. The immigration department had wanted to deport him, but he appealed. The council for alien law litigation ruled that there were insufficient guarantees to ensure that he would not face an inhumane or humiliating treatment in Morocco. The Belgium immigration department couldn't guarantee that the man wouldn't be tortured. That's a right guaranteed by a European treaty and thus the prisoner cannot be deported.

What should be done with these individuals ? Is it fair that the population at large has to

1- foot the bill
2- be put at risk ?

Why is there more concern for these fine gentlemen than for an Assange or a Snowden ?


It is natural to be concern over individuals who through terroristic acts attempted to kill or succeeded killing innocent individuals. The danger here is to portray the same attitude in turn dehumanizing the accused individuals.

I feel individuals who act out such atrocities their citizenship ought to be revoked. In the case of borne citizenship perhaps it is necessary to check them into a psyche ward to be detox and reprogram their minds.

As it relates to Assange and Snowden to my knowledge they were not accused of murderers instead they leaked highly classified information from the National Security ...there is a huge difference.
 
Oct 2015
943
Norway
#4
We have one in Norway too - Mullah Krekar. He's not been tied to any terrorist acts, but he was an Islamist Kurd militia leader and the Norwegian Government has tried to get him out of the country for ages. Just like in the case mantioned above, he can't be expelled because he risks the death penalty in Iraq. Ir's a legal and ethical problem.
 
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Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,315
Dispargum
#5
Moderators are watching this thread to ensure it does not become political. You're all on much safer ground if you talk about the history of these public policies and not current events.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,765
#7
The reason for this is, as you should know, your rights, not the rights of the terrorists.
Not really, that's a fallacious arguments... Not unlike the standard one airport security is making before stripping you almost naked "its for your own safety sir"...Since you know that you do not intend to highjack or blow up the plane, you know that putting YOU through this procedure is a waste of time and money and does not increase your safety a single bit...and its only done because airport security has not thought of/found better ways...

Its fallacious because

1 - Its hard to imagine a situation where a EU citizen would be deported to Algeria (unless he has algerian citizenship)
2 - There are some 40 million algerians in Algeria subject to Algerian justice (only a small handful -4% of those who try- get accepted as refugees)... Why should an algerian terrorist be exempt from it just because he is hiding somewhere in Europe
3 - Those who really need protection, like Assange and Snowden are not afforded it... these individuals are much closer to us than some terrorists from north Africa.... Granting protection to them would be a much better defense of our rights than being nice to terrorists who hate us and want us all dead...
4 - And finally none of us are benefitting from these "rights", but some terrorists certainly are.... Whilst our rights to security are violated by the presence of these dangerous individuals
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,765
#8
May 2017
176
Monterrey
#9
Not really, that's a fallacious arguments... Not unlike the standard one airport security is making before stripping you almost naked "its for your own safety sir"...Since you know that you do not intend to highjack or blow up the plane, you know that putting YOU through this procedure is a waste of time and money and does not increase your safety a single bit...and its only done because airport security has not thought of/found better ways...
Right, because in no case ever, in the entire history of humankind, has any government used this sort of behaviour to first take the rights from one group, and then extended that behaviour to everyone in order to cement and solidify their own power. Never, ever, neverever has this happened. For example, the NSA doesn't spy on everyone under the pretext of stopping terrorist attacks. You do understand that your own example supports my point of view and not yours?

That is to say, once a government has the right to take citizenship away...they will use it on you if they need to.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,765
#10
Right, because in no case ever, in the entire history of humankind, has any government used this sort of behaviour to first take the rights from one group, and then extended that behaviour to everyone in order to cement and solidify their own power. Never, ever, neverever has this happened. For example, the NSA doesn't spy on everyone under the pretext of stopping terrorist attacks. You do understand that your own example supports my point of view and not yours?

That is to say, once a government has the right to take citizenship away...they will use it on you if they need to.
Its naive to think that because some governments dont expel terrorists they cant expel you -or otherwise do all kinds of unpleasant things to you- if they need to (again, case and point Assange and Snowden)..... So we get the worst of both worlds, terrorists dont get kicked out, but each of us is at risk anyway....
Just as a reminder it was recently revealed that some EU countries had illegal CIA prisons complete with torture etc....

Plus its not about taking citizenship away (though that is also an option for those who acquired it through deception) , its about deporting foreign terrorists... who I might add are taking up refugee slots and funding which is sorely needed for bona fide refugees.... So everyone loses, except the terrorists
 

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