The Templar treasure of Oak Island

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,705
Portugal
#11
A part the possibility [or not] that the Templars crossed the Atlantic, that research of a treasure [if there is any] on that isle is totally wrong [and a waste of money and time].

If who put there a treasure decided for real to put it in a hall under the level of the sea, protecting it flooding all ... well, that guy was insane. Let's think for a moment to the nature of this "treasure". If there were documents to put them in the sea water would have been an idiot idea. If there were only precious objects to put them in the sea water would have been a less idiot idea, but anyway idiot ...

No. That underground system of tunnels is there to divert the attention [or it's there because of other reasons, but sure not to hide a treasure].

The treasure is above the level of the sea. If there is a treasure. No doubt. Probably in the forest.
The issue, AlpinLuke, is what sources do we have for the following points?

1. That the Templars crossed the Atlantic and found America. All the evidences that we have point precisely to the contrary. The order had ships equal to many other orders. For instance, when the Order of the Temple was converted into the Order of Christ in Portugal, there were no revelations. Later the Duke of Viseu, infante D. Henrique, the so called Navigator, was a great master of the order, and he sent his man, as well as his brothers, great masters of other orders, into the Atlantic, exploring the coast of Africa, with small ships, the “barcas”.

2. What is the relation of the Oak Island riddle with the Templars? Why didn’t their developers related it with other military order, such as the Hospitaliers, or the Order of Santiago, or the Order of Calatrava? My immediate answer would be because the Templars sell.
 
Nov 2010
7,313
Cornwall
#12
The issue, AlpinLuke, is what sources do we have for the following points?

1. That the Templars crossed the Atlantic and found America. All the evidences that we have point precisely to the contrary. The order had ships equal to many other orders. For instance, when the Order of the Temple was converted into the Order of Christ in Portugal, there were no revelations. Later the Duke of Viseu, infante D. Henrique, the so called Navigator, was a great master of the order, and he sent his man, as well as his brothers, great masters of other orders, into the Atlantic, exploring the coast of Africa, with small ships, the “barcas”.

2. What is the relation of the Oak Island riddle with the Templars? Why didn’t their developers related it with other military order, such as the Hospitaliers, or the Order of Santiago, or the Order of Calatrava? My immediate answer would be because the Templars sell.
Because the Templars were made illegal and had to shoot off double quick and gave birth to a sea of legend. The other orders in Spain were basically later nationalised and the Hospitaller treasure mostly ended up at the bottom of the sea on L'Orient t at the Battle of the Nile - though I'm sure they kept some back for ambulances today!!

The Templar/America theories mostly derive from the Sinclair clan in Scotland, remembering also that Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated and did not have to disband the Temple in Scotland. The stories go that they sent out missions westward etc etc.

As you know Portugal was considered distant enough from Rome to discreetly ignore the order and create the Orden de Cristo, probably pocketing all the loot at the same time. Can't see why anyone would want to move it on to be honest. If there ever was any. Is it not possible that the Templar banking system was so complex it may all be in credit notes and IOUs that no one ever found or revealed?

I also think the "Templar Fleet at La Rochelle" theory is a little bit too good to be true!
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,358
US
#13
Because the Templars were made illegal and had to shoot off double quick and gave birth to a sea of legend. The other orders in Spain were basically later nationalised and the Hospitaller treasure mostly ended up at the bottom of the sea on L'Orient t at the Battle of the Nile - though I'm sure they kept some back for ambulances today!!

The Templar/America theories mostly derive from the Sinclair clan in Scotland, remembering also that Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated and did not have to disband the Temple in Scotland. The stories go that they sent out missions westward etc etc.

As you know Portugal was considered distant enough from Rome to discreetly ignore the order and create the Orden de Cristo, probably pocketing all the loot at the same time. Can't see why anyone would want to move it on to be honest. If there ever was any. Is it not possible that the Templar banking system was so complex it may all be in credit notes and IOUs that no one ever found or revealed?

I also think the "Templar Fleet at La Rochelle" theory is a little bit too good to be true!
When you write of Sinclair, I think of Rosslyn Chapel. Anybody think there is any credence to its reputation?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,705
Portugal
#14
The Templar/America theories mostly derive from the Sinclair clan in Scotland, remembering also that Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated and did not have to disband the Temple in Scotland. The stories go that they sent out missions westward etc etc.
Yes, but as far as know we don’t have any sources to support those “connections”, those are pop culture and pseudo history stories.

As you know Portugal was considered distant enough from Rome to discreetly ignore the order and create the Orden de Cristo, probably pocketing all the loot at the same time.
Here I don’t agree with you. The papacy was always quite concerned with the Iberian Peninsula, including with its western part, often sending legates since the first Portuguese king. Furthermore the Order of Christ inheriting the assets and human resources of the Temple was not the only case, the same happened in Aragon with the creation of the Order of Montesa (and Aragon is much closer to Rome), while all over Europe the assets, but not necessarily the men, went to the Hospitaliers.

Can't see why anyone would want to move it on to be honest. If there ever was any. Is it not possible that the Templar banking system was so complex it may all be in credit notes and IOUs that no one ever found or revealed?
The treasure(s) are probably mostly a myth, much money was delivered to the Pope and to the French king, and all that money was lost from the orders assets. The Hospitaliers, the orders of Christ and Montesa had their shares, while splitting the “treasures”, and probably some runaway Templars picked what they could to their pockets, but looking to the all picture that was probably peanuts.

I also think the "Templar Fleet at La Rochelle" theory is a little bit too good to be true!
Yep, most probably another myth.

When you write of Sinclair, I think of Rosslyn Chapel. Anybody think there is any credence to its reputation?
At least Dan Brown made a good job. For some years everybody knew about the Rosslyn Chapel. I even got a fellow history teacher colleague that taught that all in the “Da Vinci Code” was based on real facts. But I really don't know much about the Rosslyn Chapel.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,358
US
#15
Yes, but as far as know we don’t have any sources to support those “connections”, those are pop culture and pseudo history stories.



Here I don’t agree with you. The papacy was always quite concerned with the Iberian Peninsula, including with its western part, often sending legates since the first Portuguese king. Furthermore the Order of Christ inheriting the assets and human resources of the Temple was not the only case, the same happened in Aragon with the creation of the Order of Montesa (and Aragon is much closer to Rome), while all over Europe the assets, but not necessarily the men, went to the Hospitaliers.



The treasure(s) are probably mostly a myth, much money was delivered to the Pope and to the French king, and all that money was lost from the orders assets. The Hospitaliers, the orders of Christ and Montesa had their shares, while splitting the “treasures”, and probably some runaway Templars picked what they could to their pockets, but looking to the all picture that was probably peanuts.



Yep, most probably another myth.



At least Dan Brown made a good job. For some years everybody knew about the Rosslyn Chapel. I even got a fellow history teacher colleague that taught that all in the “Da Vinci Code” was based on real facts. But I really don't know much about the Rosslyn Chapel.
The symbolism and decoration is unique and interesting. I don't believe every Templar was executed. I imagine their knowledge was still available to pass on to other generations, just like the Greco-Roman knowledge did not completely disappear with the Dark Ages.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,705
Portugal
#16
I don't believe every Templar was executed.
Indeed many escaped, besides, if I recall correctly not all were accused, and not all the accused were convicted, and not all the convicted were convicted to death.

Specifically in Portugal and in Aragon (even if I know less about Aragon) the men were integrated in the new formed orders, the Order of Christ and the Order of Montesa. In Portugal the order of Christ and its beginning its relatively well studied.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,358
US
#17
Indeed many escaped, besides, if I recall correctly not all were accused, and not all the accused were convicted, and not all the convicted were convicted to death.

Specifically in Portugal and in Aragon (even if I know less about Aragon) the men were integrated in the new formed orders, the Order of Christ and the Order of Montesa. In Portugal the order of Christ and its beginning its relatively well studied.
Indeed. Now that you mention Portugal, this documentary (or it could have been a book or internet article) I watched a few years ago mentioned something about Columbus being given advanced maps or navigation tools from there. I believe Columbus had some dealings with the Portuguese Crown? Again, speculation but interesting to consider.
 
#18
I've been following a TV series about the researches of the treasure of Oak Island. They have focused their attention on a well which reaches an underwater chamber ...

Now, frankly speaking ... are they really thinking that Templars, able to cross the ocean, hided a "treasure" in a place which was to be underwater? Are they serious? I don't need to be a member of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta [so an Order which inherited something from the Temple] to suspect they are following a false path.

My educated guess is that if there is a treasure on Oak Island ... it's not underwater, but underground. I would suggest to those guys to excavate a bit.
Oak Island? :) I think they have a better chance at reaching China. I can't figure out how that show is still on? First Off there is no Treasure on Oak Island. The first theory is that it was Pirate treasure, then it morphed into Templar treasure. That Marty guy looks like he's had enough of Oak Island every time they show his face. Might be some treasure in Nova Scotia but it aint Pirate or Templar, Probably Scavenger Treasure, Scavenged from Wrecked ships and buried, but not on Oak Island, Best Comedy on Television.

Coconut Fibers
rofl
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,901
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#19
The issue, AlpinLuke, is what sources do we have for the following points?

1. That the Templars crossed the Atlantic and found America. All the evidences that we have point precisely to the contrary. The order had ships equal to many other orders. For instance, when the Order of the Temple was converted into the Order of Christ in Portugal, there were no revelations. Later the Duke of Viseu, infante D. Henrique, the so called Navigator, was a great master of the order, and he sent his man, as well as his brothers, great masters of other orders, into the Atlantic, exploring the coast of Africa, with small ships, the “barcas”.

2. What is the relation of the Oak Island riddle with the Templars? Why didn’t their developers related it with other military order, such as the Hospitaliers, or the Order of Santiago, or the Order of Calatrava? My immediate answer would be because the Templars sell.
1. Personally, I don't know sources sustaining that they crosses the ocean.
The Order survived in Portugal becoming an other Order. About any possible "migration", my educated guess is that they navigated towards Scotland [I have been in the Argyle and actually there is something Templar there].

2. I don't know ... probably it's nice for audience or for the ego of the guys who are researching on that little isle.

But sure they are looking in the wrong place.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,705
Portugal
#20
Indeed. Now that you mention Portugal, this documentary (or it could have been a book or internet article) I watched a few years ago mentioned something about Columbus being given advanced maps or navigation tools from there. I believe Columbus had some dealings with the Portuguese Crown? Again, speculation but interesting to consider.
Columbus lived in Portugal some ten years, and married a Portuguese noblewoman (daughter of the Captain of the island of Porto Santo), but his direct links with the crown are not well established. The problem is that the man seemed to be a compulsive liar, and many of the facts of his life don’t really check. Anyway Portugal at the time had a leading knowledge of cartography (even if many of the best cartographers established in the kingdom were not Portuguese but from Mallorca) and nautical arts. Besides he was already an experienced sailor when he arrived there (and most probably a corsair, as other two know as “Coulon” at the time).

With the Portuguese he sailed in the Atlantic, he went to Mina (in the West Coast of Africa, on today’s Ghana), to Ireland and eventually to Iceland, as well as to the islands of Madeira and Porto Santo – the Portuguese had many Italians (Genoese and Venetians) at their service and established in the kingdom (it was a long tradition, the first Portuguese admiral was Genoese, Manuel Pessanha), and there were many Italian merchants, traders and bankers established there. All this gave him a relatively good knowledge of the winds and currents in the Atlantic, he didn’t need a Templar connection to have some of the knowledge that he had. The myths of the existence of Western lands and the recent (re)discovery of Azores would help in his idea.

One thing that is indisputable is the knowledge that the Templars (but also the Hospitaliers) brought to the Iberian Peninsula was the knowledge acquired in the Near East about fortifications that lead to a huge development in the Iberian Peninsula. For instance in Portugal we had in the line of the Tagus River imposing castles made by both orders: Almourol (Castle of Almourol - Wikipedia), Tomar (Castelo de Tomar – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre), both from the Templars and Belver (maybe related with Belvoir: Castle of Belver - Wikipedia) from the Hospitaliers. In Castile and Aragon we have similar examples.
 

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