The Templar treasure of Oak Island

Nov 2010
7,325
Cornwall
#21
Here I don’t agree with you. The papacy was always quite concerned with the Iberian Peninsula, including with its western part, often sending legates since the first Portuguese king. Furthermore the Order of Christ inheriting the assets and human resources of the Temple was not the only case, the same happened in Aragon with the creation of the Order of Montesa (and Aragon is much closer to Rome), while all over Europe the assets, but not necessarily the men, went to the Hospitaliers.. But I really don't know much about the Rosslyn Chapel.
I think I was merely passing on something from a book I read about the Military Orders in Iberia - one of those boring ones that counts all the sheep etc. Certainly the Papcy didn't have a lot of control over the Spanish kingdoms at that time and we know a lot of Templars discreetly passed into other orders, with any money available dropping into Castillian or Aragonese coffers in return!

Rosslyn is maybe even more dug up than Oak Island. I don't know the significance of the word and there are actually many Roslyn/ Roselyns here in Cornwall where I am. There are also Templar era churches - such as the one at 'Temple' on Bodmin Moor


1. Personally, I don't know sources sustaining that they crosses the ocean.
The Order survived in Portugal becoming an other Order. About any possible "migration", my educated guess is that they navigated towards Scotland [I have been in the Argyle and actually there is something Templar there].
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The connection with Scotland is very strong though I am not about any 'treasure'. The facts are that Robert the Bruce was excommunicated at the time and didn't have to obey (or didn't want to) any Papal orders - aside from being far more remote from Roma than anywhere else. Henry Sinclair was a Templar and lord in the Orkneys and it is his clan from which a lot of the exploration theories derive, though it's all 'alleged'. His descendent built the chapel.

Scotland had Templar knights as did any other kingdom. Scotland was therefore a safe haven for any English or French (or Iberian) knights to escape possible persecution. Apart from the supposedly swift movement of the French king everything else would take ages - Jerez de los Caballeros for example refused to give themselves in and it was taken by siege around 1313 and every Templar fought to the death. Plenty of time to move.

Which brings us to Bannockburn. A quite largely inferior and ill-equipped Scottish army wiped the floor with the powerful English army of Edward II. Legend has it that in mid battle a large contingent of knights (which on paper the Scottish didn't have too many of) appeared and charged straight for the camp of Edward II, causing his entourage and consquently the whole army to flee in panic. The fleeing of Edward is not in doubt and also the going for the head strategy is Templar. We know the difference a number of professional horse knights can have in battle as opposed to usual feudal armies, from their action in the Holy Land and in the armies of Jamie I of Aragon and Alfonso VIII of Castille to name but 2.

How can the Scotish army not have had Templars in it? A thank you for their refuge??

Still no treasure though :)
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,711
Portugal
#22
I think I was merely passing on something from a book I read about the Military Orders in Iberia - one of those boring ones that counts all the sheep etc. Certainly the Papcy didn't have a lot of control over the Spanish kingdoms at that time and we know a lot of Templars discreetly passed into other orders, with any money available dropping into Castillian or Aragonese coffers in return!
About Jerez I recall the myth, but really don’t know much about it, don’t recall to read anything serious in deep about those events.

Anyway about the all situation in Castile, quite chaotic, I had this article in my PC, and was able to find it again online: https://revistas.ucm.es/index.php/ELEM/article/viewFile/ELEM9393110037A/23500 (in Spanish, it briefly mentions Jerez).

And Carlos Barquero Goñi states “En definitiva, de lo que no cabe duda es de que la proporción de propiedades del Temple en Castilla que pasaron al Hospital fue muy baja, si no mínima”/ “In short, there is no doubt that the proportion of properties of the Temple in Castile that went to the Hospital was very low, if not minimal”. I confess that I didn’t recall this!

Meanwhile I found this article, but still didn’t fully read it: http://www.romanicodigital.com/documentos_web/documentos/C12-4_Gonzalo Martínez .pdf (in Spanish), but already saw “La tortura, aunque con más moderación que en Francia, fue empleada en los interrogatorios de los templarios en todas partes, con excepción de Castilla y Portugal.”/“ Torture, though with more moderation than in France, was used in the interrogations of the Templars everywhere, with the exception of Castile and Portugal”

And “"No hallaban ser culpados en cosa alguna los dichos freyles ni su orden acá en estos revnos de Castilla e León, sino muy buenos religiosos e de muy buena fama”/ “The brothers (Templars) or their order in Castile and Leon aren’t guilt of anything, and are good religious and with good reputation”.

Ages ago, I read a doctoral or master thesis about the Order of Christ, have to take a look again.

About the events in Scotland, is there any serious online article?
 
Aug 2017
72
USA
#23
I don't really buy the money pit theory, my personal favorite Templar conspiracy theory is that they founded Switzerland. The swiss went from nobodies to a military powerhouse pretty much over night, and took a plain cross on white as their flag.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,711
Portugal
#24
I don't really buy the money pit theory, my personal favorite Templar conspiracy theory is that they founded Switzerland. The swiss went from nobodies to a military powerhouse pretty much over night, and took a plain cross on white as their flag.
First time I hear that. I guess with the Templars pop culture the Aliens are the limit.
 
Oct 2018
26
Belgium
#25
Also, don't forget their expertise in banking. That, too, they brought to Switzerland, along with their typical Templar secrecy, which became the hallmark of Swiss banking.

Yes, I've seen this claimed seriously. I'd love to add my own theory: that the Templars' secret rituals followed extremely strict rules, including very precise timing, hence the Swiss interest in accurate timepieces.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,711
Portugal
#26
Also, don't forget their expertise in banking. That, too, they brought to Switzerland, along with their typical Templar secrecy, which became the hallmark of Swiss banking.

Yes, I've seen this claimed seriously. I'd love to add my own theory: that the Templars' secret rituals followed extremely strict rules, including very precise timing, hence the Swiss interest in accurate timepieces.
Among other things, the Swiss banking was mostly developed in the 20th century, with the world wars, especially the World War II, due to the Swiss neutrality the Jewish and Nazi issues.

There are some 600 years gap between the peak of the Swiss banking and the rudimentary (at today’s eyes) Templar banking system. So were was all that Templar influence in the Swiss banking system for those 600 years? Maybe because there isn’t any.

The Templar banking system wouldn’t be much different from other’s at the time period or even later, such as the well known in pop culture Medici, or the less pop culture known Fugger. The Templar system had the advantage that they were wide spread for all Europe, is like today to have a bank representative office/branch in every major town.

By the way, what are those secret rituals about the Templars that you are mentioning? Don’t forget that those rituals were a part of the forged accusations against them, so we have quite an hard time to see what can in fact be real, or what were forged to allow the Templars downfall. So to call that idea a theory can be interesting but it is to fall in pseudo/speculative history.
 
Oct 2018
26
Belgium
#27
I was making fun of these crackpot "theories", you know.

I have remembered where I saw the idea that the Templars went off to found Switzerland, complete with banking sector. Predictably, in a History Channel documentary:
(The Switzerland nonsense starts at around the 1:05 mark. I don't know who the bloke is who expounds the theory, but he appears deadly serious, and more than probably has a book about it to sell.)

or the less pop culture known Fugger.
Anglosphere pop culture I take it. In parts of Europe with links to the Holy Roman Empire, they're still quite well known.

So to call that idea a theory can be interesting but it is to fall in pseudo/speculative history.
How fitting then that this is the Speculative History forum.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,711
Portugal
#28
I was making fun of these crackpot "theories", you know.

I have remembered where I saw the idea that the Templars went off to found Switzerland, complete with banking sector. Predictably, in a History Channel documentary:


(The Switzerland nonsense starts at around the 1:05 mark. I don't know who the bloke is who expounds the theory, but he appears deadly serious, and more than probably has a book about it to sell.)
Sorry, I really didn’t understood that you were making fun of it.

I still remember the time when I recommended to my students to watch the History Channel… that seems a century ago!

How fitting then that this is the Speculative History forum.
Touché!!! :D
 

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