The Turin Shroud

Todd Feinman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2013
6,508
Planet Nine, Oregon
I don't know about the idea that you mention, could you explain more fully how the image is produced?
The scorching theory suggested (iirc) that the image was produced by placing the shroud over a heated metal statue, carbonizing or burning the image into the cloth.
 
Mar 2014
111
NE USA
Scorching was my favourite. Well, since it's not possible due to some fluoresce test...
If we leave some image on a wallpaper and take it away after some months we will see an image (an inverted one). Is it called scorching? Was this hypothesis tested? debunked?
Why not make a paste with something high in Vitamin C like strawberries, and flour. Make sure it's not too runny, or dry (just enough to transfer). Take the paste, spread it on your face (a light film) then take a cloth very lightly damp, and press it on your face (do not smear). Now hold the cloth against a hot iron, or just above a toaster (with a back & forth motion), or in an oven on a rack 400°F for about 15 minutes. See your face appear.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,210
Welsh Marches
The scorching theory suggested (iirc) that the image was produced by placing the shroud over a heated metal statue, carbonizing or burning the image into the cloth.
Yes, I've heard of that claim, and of one or two experiments of that kind, but the image can not have been produced in that way because it does not result from scorching, as has been shown among other things by fluoresence tests. It is formed in the very peculiar way that I described above with accompanying photomicrographs.

Anyone who is setting out to show how the image could have been forged does not simply have to show how a broadly comparable image could be produced (which could be achieved in a variety of ways if one is aiming at no more than general similarity), but how an image of the precise kind that is found on the shroud could be produced, through extremely superficial discolouration of individual fibrils within the threads. The crude debunking exercise that one can find easily enough on the internet are worthless because they do not explain that. It could not possibly be any kind of contact image, furthermore, because it is lacking in the distortions that one would then find.
 

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,048
I don't know about the idea that you mention, could you explain more fully how the image is produced?
The idea is very simple. Long exposure to sunlight can result in discoloration of wallpapers. If there's a picture on the wall the wallpaper behind the picture does not fade as fast. If there is an image on the wall, the wallpaper behind it fade with tones. The darker the image the less fading. As a result we have a negative. You may look at these photos. They explain better than my lame English:

Проявление ликов на стенах храмов: анализ - Расследования на сайте Белорусского уфологического комитета
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,210
Welsh Marches
Why not make a paste with something high in Vitamin C like strawberries, and flour. Make sure it's not too runny, or dry (just enough to transfer). Take the paste, spread it on your face (a light film) then take a cloth very lightly damp, and press it on your face (do not smear). Now hold the cloth against a hot iron, or just above a toaster (with a back & forth motion), or in an oven on a rack 400°F for about 15 minutes. See your face appear.
Yes, but I presume that you are not suggesting that the image on the shroud could have been produced in any comparable way? For there is no scorching on the shroud, only very superficial discolouration through light oxidation.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,210
Welsh Marches
The idea is very simple. Long exposure to sunlight can result in discoloration of wallpapers. If there's a picture on the wall the wallpaper behind the picture does not fade as fast. If there is an image on the wall, the wallpaper behind it fade with tones. The darker the image the less fading. As a result we have a negative. You may look at these photos. They explain better than my lame English:

Проявление ликов на стенах храмов: анализ - Расследования на сайте Белорусского уфологического комитета
THank you, that is very interesting; I was also able to make some sense of the text by using automatic translation. I think that I have actually seen images left on wallpaper after pictures are pulled down, but I'm not sure that they were eactly the same as those. The question is: could an image of the quality and detail of the shroud image be produced in such a way, marked out through discolouration of individual fibrils? I think not, that seems to a different phenomenon in which the image is painted (if may use the metaphor) with a much broader brush.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,029
Italy, Lago Maggiore
It is one of the things I find most intriguing about the shroud. Even if it had the image of Joe the potter on it. It would still be a fascinating artifact for research.
It's clear. Some relics, or some objects [like the cup used by Napoleon when he got crowned King of Italy ... it is a Roman cup made of blue glass and it has been indicated as the Grail ...] have passed through the centuries. Actually the history of the Catholic relics [the real history] is quite fascinating.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,029
Italy, Lago Maggiore
THank you, that is very interesting; I was also able to make some sense of the text by using automatic translation. I think that I have actually seen images left on wallpaper after pictures are pulled down, but I'm not sure that they were eactly the same as those. The question is: could an image of the quality and detail of the shroud image be produced in such a way, marked out through discolouration of individual fibrils? I think not, that seems to a different phenomenon in which the image is painted (if may use the metaphor) with a much broader brush.
No Linschoten, it wasn't possible. Even if I'm skeptical and I tend to think to a medieval origin of the Shroud, I reject all the super modern explanations supporting the idea of a forgery. A laser [or a not existing yet quantum emitter] could obtain that result.

No.

The real alternative is hat in Middle Ages someone decided to kill and to wrap in that way a person. Not impossible in that historical context. May be a Muslim prisoner captured during the Crusaders ...

This is to underline that we cannot exclude something simply because we consider it impossible TODAY [in our cultural context].
 

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,048
The real alternative is hat in Middle Ages someone decided to kill and to wrap in that way a person. Not impossible in that historical context. May be a Muslim prisoner captured during the Crusaders ...
Unfortunatly wrapping would result in a very distorted image. So it's a big no.
 

sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,621
San Diego
When people try to prove Americans never went to the Moon they give lots of arguments. And recieve the same number of contrarguments. But to me there are just two that prove there were Apollo missions. The moon rocks and movies the crews were making before landing (about 15 minutes where they got thousands of craters from the big ones to the smallest possible before touching the ground. It's dactiloscopy, It's impossible to fake them and easy to check).

The same about the Turin Shroud. Syndologists can print tons of articles (which look very scientific like) but C14 dating kills them all. What else can be said? 14th century if I am not mistaken.
the C14 data is Not definitive, because all those scorch marks on the shroud are from a FIRE it was in at almost exactly the date of the c14 data.
that exposure renders carbon dating on the shroud almost immaterial.

There is other evidence, however that suggests its a fake. The most compelling of which is its Sudden appearance with no prior provenance., and how easy it would be to fake.
As an artist, how I would approach such a project is to get a jesusy looking dude and oil him up with some blood on him and try laying him in a shroud for a few hours.
You might have to do 4 or 5 to find the right kind of oils that are aromatic enough to leave an impression on the cloth.n The notion that it would have been PAINTED on is simply silly, given how much easier it would be to do an oil stain tranfer print.