The Turin Shroud

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,047
#61
If the radiations was caused in that way, it would be undertandable that the image would be on the shroud that was enclosing the body, rather than the face-cloth, which would have been taken off and laid at one side.
If they wiped the face (why would they do it? They should wash it) it would be a mopping cloth not the sudarium. Sudarium was intendet to stay on the head or around it). In any way there would be just one smear around the cloth not the imprint.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,175
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#62
That the human body issues radiations is obvious [thermal, in the form of infrared light], but to prove, historically [not theologically] that a dead body was in condition to produce a suitable radiation to generate the image on the shroud ... well that's a totally different matter.

Anyway, this is a work about that possibility ... Role of Radiation in Image Formation on the Shroud of Turin
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,160
Welsh Marches
#63
@ maribat - I think the face-cloth would have been wound around his head while he was still on the cross, to spare people the sight, and left there while he was left on the ground, but removed when he was laid in the cloth, either then or after the body had been carried to the cave; the fact is that the stains from the head on the sudarium and the shroud match one another, and the sudarium can be traced abck to c. 570, that is one of the reasons why the shroud seems to be older than the carbon dating suggests. The blood-stains match on both moreover, AB blood-group (a rare group, 1-2% I think), as do the pollen remains.
 
Oct 2009
3,523
San Diego
#65
Why on Earth do you think fire can reset the carborn dating? IMO it's pure sindologists' fantasy.
Because I know how carbon dating is done.

Soot and smoke are largely CARBON. When you place a garment in a box that is on fire- that burns enough to literally burn the corners off the folded cloth, you Fill the box with soot and smoke from the Burning WOOD.
That infuses the entire garment with carbon from the wood the box was made of, and as a result, the carbon you are testing in testing the cloth has a LARGE component of carbon from the box, mixed with that of the cloth.

Let's say the cloth is 300 years older than the wood the box was made of... because of the fire, the cloth will test as , maybe, 50 years older than the box, and Not its true age because it contains a mixture of carbon from both, and the carbon from the smoke of the box is more assayable since it is mostly free carbon, and not carbon tied into larger more complex molecules.

No matter how they try, they can not go between every fiber of the cloth and Pick Out the individual carbon atoms that came from the box... so carbon dating the shroud is worthless.
They no longer HAVE the box it was burned in... so they can't check the box to see if it was a similar age to the shroud.


On another point- the claims that the image had to have been HEATED to form are false. ( the HOT bronze sculpture story and such )
The image was formed by volatile OILS evaporating from a body- and that process is more effective if the body is warm... but the fact that the image TESTS as if it were "scorched" into the fabric is simply, again, the result of the fire. the Smoke particles would have stuck especially well to the lipids in the oil stains... darkening the image ( the church reports that the image became more visible after the fire ) and testing would show the high carbon content of the markings as some form of burning.

Really... its just an oil and blood stain on a cloth, that has soaked in, and had a deposit of soot stuck to the oily stain.

Even in the medieval world, an artist would know that the simplest and most accurate way to create such an image would be to drape a cloth over an oiled up body after having painted some fresh blood stains on it. He might have used a dead body- or he might have simply used a model that looked the type.


PS- although... since dead bodies WERE anointed with oil in jerusalem, this means that it could well have been an actual body of an actual crucified man that formed the image...
but, again, given the lucrative business of faking relics in the crusader times... and how silly easy it would be to create such an image... and the lack of provenance before it was suddenly 'discovered' - that ALL adds up to forgery.
 
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Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,160
Welsh Marches
#66
The image doesn't test as if it were scorched into the fabric, the tests have in fact show that there is no scorching connected with it; I have explained above, with photomicrographs, exactly how the image is formed by discolouration of the surafce of individual fibrils, by a form of light oxidation. If the image had been formed from oils evaporating form the body, the oils would have left at least some trace, and would have penetrated beneath the surface into the medulla of the fibrils, and indeed into the centre of many threads. The procedure that you describe is wholly implausible if you consider the precise way in whcih the image is formed and the stains are impressed on the fabric. One can easily imagine any number of ways in which the image might have been created if one doesn't consider the details of how it is actually formed!
 

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,047
#68
He is the main source for its history, but his report needs to be interpreted in conjunction with other evidence, extending back to c.570, this provides a useful brief outline:
https://shroud.com/pdfs/guscin.pdf
Of course I have read that article but i don't find the stories of old times reliable.

"There are various manuscripts containing all or part of this corpus pelagianum, the majority of which have never been published. Three of them (from the Biblioteca Nacional in Madrid) contain the history of the ark with some details not given in the Book of Testaments. In these manuscripts we are told that the ark left Jerusalem over the Mediterranean Sea, not overland, and that it entered the Iberian peninsula via the port of Cartagena. The curious thing about these manuscripts is that the sudarium does not appear in the list of relics, although it should also be pointed out that no two lists are the same in any document. "

"This version is more a religious than a historical document a it is full of supernatural events and stories of miracles. "

"All the manuscripts then have the long and detailed story of how a demon possessed girl was cured in the presence of the ark and its relics. "

"The story in these manuscripts seems too based in religious fantasy to be classed as real history."

Nothing can attest the existence of the cloth before 11th century IMO. All other texts are nothing but a postfactum pious fantasy IMHO.
 

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,047
#69
Because I know how carbon dating is done.

Soot and smoke are largely CARBON. When you place a garment in a box that is on fire- that burns enough to literally burn the corners off the folded cloth, you Fill the box with soot and smoke from the Burning WOOD.
That infuses the entire garment with carbon from the wood the box was made of, and as a result, the carbon you are testing in testing the cloth has a LARGE component of carbon from the box, mixed with that of the cloth.
Wooden box? I've read it was a silver case

"The Shroud first came to historical attention in 1356 in France and was often displayed. Subsequently, it was kept in a silver box. A fire in 1532 melted portions of this box and molten silver burned its way through the folded cloth leaving scorched areas which were later repaired. The fire was extinguished with water which penetrated the holes in the casket, making large water stains on the cloth" (https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi43part3.pdf)

...we all know that it was Marguerite of Austria who had another reliquary made for the Shroud in 1509; the silver box that was destroyed by fire in the Holy Chapel of Chambéry in the night between the third and fourth of December 1532. (https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi37part3.pdf)

And don't the laboratories clean the samples before the carbon dating begins?
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,160
Welsh Marches
#70
Of course I have read that article but i don't find the stories of old times reliable.

"There are various manuscripts containing all or part of this corpus pelagianum, the majority of which have never been published. Three of them (from the Biblioteca Nacional in Madrid) contain the history of the ark with some details not given in the Book of Testaments. In these manuscripts we are told that the ark left Jerusalem over the Mediterranean Sea, not overland, and that it entered the Iberian peninsula via the port of Cartagena. The curious thing about these manuscripts is that the sudarium does not appear in the list of relics, although it should also be pointed out that no two lists are the same in any document. "

"This version is more a religious than a historical document a it is full of supernatural events and stories of miracles. "

"All the manuscripts then have the long and detailed story of how a demon possessed girl was cured in the presence of the ark and its relics. "

"The story in these manuscripts seems too based in religious fantasy to be classed as real history."

Nothing can attest the existence of the cloth before 11th century IMO. All other texts are nothing but a postfactum pious fantasy IMHO.
The carbon dating dates the sudarium to c700, which is too early for the one alternative and too late for the other! I don't know much about it, but I think the evidence from the bishop's inventory has some support from other evidence. It was among other objects in a silver-plated Arca Santa (hloy chest) which evidently already quite old by the bishop's time, and this chest had been kept in a special room which was constructed for it and other items in 812 by Alfonso II; and the earlier history of these relics can be traced well back into the 8th Century. They must have been very important ones because they ranked with those at Santiago da Compostela. So I doubt that the good bishop simply invented the cloth. It contains stains moreover which accord precisely with thos on the shroud, which was created well after the bishop's time according to the carbon dating. This is quite a labyrinth!
 

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