The Turin Shroud

Sep 2013
432
France
Are there other medieval paintings/sculptures of a crucified man with nails un the wrists?
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,209
Welsh Marches
It's more like "Begging the question" is what you're doing. Only radiation can do this, and it did not soak into the fibers as painting it would (wink wink supernatural explanation wink wink).

Making a paste with ascorbic acid (which is found in many foods), it can be brushed on a cloth. Starting with an outline of a figure the cloth can be placed on an hot surface. The paste will scorch an impression way before damaging the cloth as demonstrated in the video using lemon juice on paper. The cloth can be washed then other details added on.

I have shown the Occam's Razor on how the Shroud was made. Unless a sample from the actual image is tested showing otherwise then that's the most plausible answer rather than going straight to the least plausible. Your close up photos does not disprove it.

There's many more things I can (some have already) bring up to show that the shroud is a mediavel hoax. But if your mind will not let you come to the realization that there's nothing fantastic on how it's made, then what's the point? The handwaving will continue.
No, it is not begging the question to point out the precise nature of the image, and the difficulties that a hoaxer would have in reproducing it; it is posing the problem on the basis of the evidence. And I have tried to approach the matter in a neutral and objective manner, so I would be grateful if you would cut out the cheap polemics ("wink wink supernatural explanation wink wink", what my mind will supposedly allow, etc.), which contribute nothing to the discussion. Naturally I know of Garlaschelli's experiments, but they do not produce an image of a nature that is remotely comparable to that on the shroud; one has to start with a precisely analsysis of the nature of the image and find a mechanism that can reproduce it. Radiation has been shown to be capable of producing very superficial discolouration of scattered individual fibrils, not extending into the medulla or into the threads, and the crude process that you mention has not. It is merely one of the several methods that have been devised that can provide a rough simulation.
 
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Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,048
The question is would the sindologists persue with the quest for the ways the anciant artist used to creat the Shroud if they knew 100 percent that Shoud were 14th century artifact and had nothing to do with Jesus?
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,209
Welsh Marches
Are there other medieval paintings/sculptures of a crucified man with nails un the wrists?
I don't know of any, I think everyone just followed the standard representation going back to the late Roman period in which the nails go through the palms.

cQmaryPsalterC14.jpg

A 14th Century portrayal from a psalter.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,209
Welsh Marches
The question is would the sindologists persue with the quest for the ways the anciant artist used to creat the Shroud if they knew 100 percent that Shoud were 14th century artifact and had nothing to do with Jesus?
People wouldn't put the same effort into it presumably, but it would still be a very interesting question. There is nothing like this in medieval art, either with regard to the way in the image is produced or to the style and iconography (which are more Byzantine).
 

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,048
The one and only reason sindologists have appeared and still do exist is to prove the Shroud is authentic. They created a special science that holds that name - sindology. They produce hundreds and hundreds of articles on the subject. They gather at symposiums and conferences, they write books. They would all quit if it's an artist masterpiece. They would nor care for it anymore.
 
Mar 2014
111
NE USA
I see two issues that are not anywhere close to being resolved. First of all, how was it made and secondly, when was it made. The chances seem slim to none that a conclusive answer is out there.
Why not try the experiment with the tomato sauce, and cloth I previously outlined?

The shroud was probably made near the time we hear about it.

It is always best to say "I don't know" when we don't know.

Eh, nothing wrong with a few unsolved mysteries lingering out there. It spices up life a bit. My .02.
There's plenty of mysteries in science with no need to beat a dead horse.

No, it is not begging the question to point out the precise nature of the image, and the difficulties that a hoaxer would have in reproducing it; it is posing the problem on the basis of the evidence. And I have tried to approach the matter in a neutral and objective manner, so I would be grateful if you would cut out the cheap polemics ("wink wink supernatural explanation wink wink", what my mind will supposedly allow, etc.), which contribute nothing to the discussion. Naturally I know of Garlaschelli's experiments, but they do not produce an image of a nature that is remotely comparable to that on the shroud; one has to start with a precisely analsysis of the nature of the image and find a mechanism that can reproduce it. Radiation has been shown to be capable of producing very superficial discolouration of scattered individual fibrils, not extending into the medulla or into the threads, and the crude process that you mention has not. It is merely one of the several methods that have been devised that can provide a rough simulation.
Special pleading much?

An ascorbic acid burn painting matches exactly what we find. It may have taken several trials, and errors for a commissioned artist to complete to satisfaction with this technique. It's definitely a huge money maker from gullible pilgrimage goers.

All you're adding to the conversation is what you want it to be which doesn't jibe with reality.

Funny how modestly the Lord covers his genitals. Is that an ancient Hebrew burial practice, or is that how the Lord says "Cheese!" when his picture is taken?
 

Cepheus

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,309
Why not try the experiment with the tomato sauce, and cloth I previously outlined?
By all means, go ahead. My comments did not exclude such endeavors.


There's plenty of mysteries in science with no need to beat a dead horse.
Nope. It is a truism.

I would have to be the one pursuing a cause to be the one beating a dead horse.

The closest thing to dead horse beating in this thread, IMHO, is the pursuit of a conclusive answer to the Shroud. To be clear, I am NOT saying that studying the shroud in search for a conclusive answer is, in fact, beating a dead horse. I have no problem with people trying to find the answer in regard to the shroud, and, I encourage them to do so ,and, I would be very interested in the conclusion.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,209
Welsh Marches
Why not try the experiment with the tomato sauce, and cloth I previously outlined?

The shroud was probably made near the time we hear about it.



There's plenty of mysteries in science with no need to beat a dead horse.



Special pleading much?

An ascorbic acid burn painting matches exactly what we find. It may have taken several trials, and errors for a commissioned artist to complete to satisfaction with this technique. It's definitely a huge money maker from gullible pilgrimage goers.

All you're adding to the conversation is what you want it to be which doesn't jibe with reality.

Funny how modestly the Lord covers his genitals. Is that an ancient Hebrew burial practice, or is that how the Lord says "Cheese!" when his picture is taken?
Why not try the experiment with the tomato sauce, and cloth I previously outlined?

The shroud was probably made near the time we hear about it.



There's plenty of mysteries in science with no need to beat a dead horse.



Special pleading much?

An ascorbic acid burn painting matches exactly what we find. It may have taken several trials, and errors for a commissioned artist to complete to satisfaction with this technique. It's definitely a huge money maker from gullible pilgrimage goers.

All you're adding to the conversation is what you want it to be which doesn't jibe with reality.

Funny how modestly the Lord covers his genitals. Is that an ancient Hebrew burial practice, or is that how the Lord says "Cheese!" when his picture is taken?
I'm not going to enter into a discussion with someone who provides no evidence for his assertions and persists in lowering the tone of the discussion, beyond remarking that the results of the procedure do not remotely match what is found on the shroud (with regard to the extreme superficiality of the discolouration and its discontinuous nature, to mention just one point among several).