The Uprising of Women in the Arab World

Jan 2012
1,015
Karachi
#81
First time I have heard that the Quran was not written in classical Arabic. Really . As for the article providing only a couple of examples, that is a flat out lie . Here are a few places where the word is used , to mean travel .

3:156

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لَا تَكُونُواْ كَٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَقَالُواْ لِإِخۡوَٲنِهِمۡ إِذَا ضَرَبُواْ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَوۡ كَانُواْ غُزًّ۬ى لَّوۡ كَانُواْ عِندَنَا مَا مَاتُواْ وَمَا قُتِلُواْ لِيَجۡعَلَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ حَسۡرَةً۬ فِى قُلُوبِہِمۡ*ۗ وَٱللَّهُ يُحۡىِۦ وَيُمِيتُ*ۗ وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعۡمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ۬ (١٥٦)


O ye who Believe! be not like the Unbelievers, who say of their brethren, when they are travelling through the earth or engaged in fighting: "If they had stayed with us, they would not have died, or been slain." This that Allah may make it a cause of sighs, and regrets in their hearts. It is Allah that gives Life and Death and Allah sees well all that ye do. (156)

4:101
وَإِذَا ضَرَبۡتُمۡ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ فَلَيۡسَ عَلَيۡكُمۡ جُنَاحٌ أَن تَقۡصُرُواْ مِنَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةِ إِنۡ خِفۡتُمۡ أَن يَفۡتِنَكُمُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓاْ*ۚ إِنَّ ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ كَانُواْ لَكُمۡ عَدُوًّ۬ا مُّبِينً۬ا (١٠١)


When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you, if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers may attack you: for the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies. (101)

73:20
۞ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعۡلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدۡنَىٰ مِن ثُلُثَىِ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَنِصۡفَهُ ۥ وَثُلُثَهُ ۥ وَطَآٮِٕفَةٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱلَّذِينَ مَعَكَ*ۚ وَٱللَّهُ يُقَدِّرُ ٱلَّيۡلَ وَٱلنَّہَارَ*ۚ عَلِمَ أَن لَّن تُحۡصُوهُ فَتَابَ عَلَيۡكُمۡ*ۖ فَٱقۡرَءُواْ مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانِ*ۚ عَلِمَ أَن سَيَكُونُ مِنكُم مَّرۡضَىٰ*ۙ وَءَاخَرُونَ يَضۡرِبُونَ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ يَبۡتَغُونَ مِن فَضۡلِ ٱللَّهِ*ۙ وَءَاخَرُونَ يُقَـٰتِلُونَ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ*ۖ فَٱقۡرَءُواْ مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنۡهُ*ۚ وَأَقِيمُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُواْ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَأَقۡرِضُواْ ٱللَّهَ قَرۡضًا حَسَنً۬ا*ۚ وَمَا تُقَدِّمُواْ لِأَنفُسِكُم مِّنۡ خَيۡرٍ۬ تَجِدُوهُ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ هُوَ خَيۡرً۬ا وَأَعۡظَمَ أَجۡرً۬ا*ۚ وَٱسۡتَغۡفِرُواْ ٱللَّهَ*ۖ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌ۬ رَّحِيمُۢ (٢٠)


The Lord doth know that thou standest forth (to prayer) nigh two-thirds of the night, or half the night, or a third of the night, and so doth a party of those with thee. But Allah doth appoint Night and Day in due measure. He knoweth that ye are unable to keep count thereof. So He hath turned to you (in mercy): read ye, therefore, of the Qur'an as much as may be easy for you. He knoweth that there may be (some) among you in ill-health; others travelling through the land, seeking of Allah's bounty; yet others fighting in Allah's Cause. Read ye, therefore, as much of the Qur'an as may be easy (for you); and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan. And whatever good ye send forth for your souls, Ye shall find it in Allah's presence― yea, better and greater, in Reward, And seek ye the Grace of Allah: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (20)

2:273
لِلۡفُقَرَآءِ ٱلَّذِينَ أُحۡصِرُواْ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ لَا يَسۡتَطِيعُونَ ضَرۡبً۬ا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ يَحۡسَبُهُمُ ٱلۡجَاهِلُ أَغۡنِيَآءَ مِنَ ٱلتَّعَفُّفِ تَعۡرِفُهُم بِسِيمَـٰهُمۡ لَا يَسۡـَٔلُونَ ٱلنَّاسَ إِلۡحَافً۬ا*ۗ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِنۡ خَيۡرٍ۬ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ بِهِۦ عَلِيمٌ (٢٧٣)


(Charity is) for those in need, who, in Allah's cause, are restricted (from travel) and cannot move about in the land, seeking (for trade or work): the ignorant man thinks because of their modesty that they are free from want. Thou shalt know them by their (unfailing) mark: they beg not importunately from all and sundry. And whatever of good ye give, be assured Allah knoweth it well.

To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29;
43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11

And as you pointed out, To explain: 13:17

Why then, do people stick to a single word when it comes to dealing with someone who is weak (women) ? Why do those same translators not use the word in other cases ?

To demonstrate how ridiculous that would be .

نزَلَ مِنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ مَآءً۬ فَسَالَتۡ أَوۡدِيَةُۢ بِقَدَرِهَا فَٱحۡتَمَلَ ٱلسَّيۡلُ زَبَدً۬ا رَّابِيً۬ا*ۚ وَمِمَّا يُوقِدُونَ عَلَيۡهِ فِى ٱلنَّارِ ٱبۡتِغَآءَ حِلۡيَةٍ أَوۡ مَتَـٰعٍ۬ زَبَدٌ۬ مِّثۡلُهُ ۥ*ۚ كَذَٲلِكَ يَضۡرِبُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡحَقَّ وَٱلۡبَـٰطِلَ*ۚ فَأَمَّا ٱلزَّبَدُ فَيَذۡهَبُ جُفَآءً۬*ۖ وَأَمَّا مَا يَنفَعُ ٱلنَّاسَ فَيَمۡكُثُ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ*ۚ كَذَٲلِكَ يَضۡرِبُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡأَمۡثَالَ (١٧)

Yusuf Ali translates ;

He sends down water from the skies, and the channels flow, each according to its measure: but the torrent bears away the foam that mounts up to the surface. Even so, from that (ore) which they heat in the fire, to make ornaments or utensils therewith there is a scum likewise. Thus doth Allah (by parables) show forth Truth and Vanity: For the scum disappears like froth cast out; while that which is for the good of mankind remains on the earth. Thus doth Allah set forth parables. (17)

Pickthal;

He sendeth down water from the sky, so that valleys flow according to their measure, and the flood beareth (on its surface) swelling foam - from that which they smelt in the fire in order to make ornaments and tools riseth a foam like unto it - thus Allah coineth (the similitude of) the true and the false. Then, as for the foam, it passeth away as scum upon the banks, while, as for that which is of use to mankind, it remaineth in the earth. Thus Allah coineth the similitudes. (17)

How exactly do you plan on fitting "beat" into that ?
 
May 2012
5,681
Iraq
#82
Financial independence will not necessarily prevent domestic violence. Erin Pizzey's book on ths subject pointed out that the violence is often mutual. The women in such violent relationships are often violent themselves.
Well yes but I'm talking about sort of a different situation. In America I've known 3 different women in abusive relationships and all of them had problems with substance abuse.
 
Apr 2009
514
#83
First time I have heard that the Quran was not written in classical Arabic. Really . As for the article providing only a couple of examples, that is a flat out lie .
Wow Lazyman, you are certainly not Lazy! I don't know what you are trying to do. It seems like you know you are losing the argument so now you just want to engage in sophistry and confusion and to bury the facts I have presented in a bunch of irrelevant details so that the audience gets bored and loses interest.

When did anybody state that the Quran was not written in Classical Arabic? The article that you provided did only have 2 examples. At least that is the portion of the article that you presented here. If the original article was longer then do not accuse me of lying because I only read what you pasted here.

Lazyman said:
Here are a few places where the word is used , to mean travel .

3:156
ضربوا في الأرض

4:101
ضربتم في الأرض
73:20
يضربون في الأرض
2:273
ضربا في الأرض
In all those examples a preposition is used في (meaning "in" - "to travel in the land") so not a direct comparison with 4.34 where no preposition is used. Even if it was comparable it would still not make sense: "if your wives are disobedient travel them"??

Lazyman said:
And as you pointed out, To explain: 13:17.......

How exactly do you plan on fitting "beat" into that ?
But noone is arguing that it means "to beat" in 13.17, you are creating a strawman. Or you are seeking to confuse the audience.

In 13.17, from the context, it would not make sense for the word to mean "to beat". Just like in 4.34, it would not make sense to mean "to explain" or "to travel".

Have you ever noticed that it is only Turks, Pakistanis and other non-native Arab speakers that try to claim that 4.34 does not mean to beat your wife. Native Arab speakers never make that claim to other Arabs because they know it is ridiculous.
 
Jan 2012
1,015
Karachi
#84
Wow Lazyman, you are certainly not Lazy!
Come on now I prefer honesty .

When did anybody state that the Quran was not written in Classical Arabic? The article that you provided did only have 2 examples. At least that is the portion of the article that you presented here. If the original article was longer then do not accuse me of lying because I only read what you pasted here.
Actually I looked up all the examples I posted from that very post, so no, I did give you the whole article .


In all those examples a preposition is used في (meaning "in" - "to travel in the land") so not a direct comparison with 4.34 where no preposition is used. Even if it was comparable it would still not make sense: "if your wives are disobedient travel them"??
Again, copying from that same post ,

Whenever we encounter a multiple-meaning word in the Quran – and this is a frequent occurrence --
we must select the proper meaning (or meanings) given the context, the Arabic forms, the usage of the
same word elsewhere in the Quran, and a certain amount of common sense. For instance, if one were
to translate DaRaBa in 13:17 as "beat" (as one could conceivably do), the meaning would be
ridiculous:
." . . God thus beats truth and falsehood..." (13:17)
A more sensitive rendering of the context, however, yields a better translation:
"… God thus explains truth and falsehood..." (13:17)
Another example of mistranslation of DaRaBa can be found in the translation of 38:44. Almost all the
translations inject a rather silly story to justify their rendering of the passage. Here is how Yusuf Ali
translates the first portion of this verse, which is about Job:
"And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (the oath)." (38:44)
Yusuf Ali, in the footnote, narrates the traditional story: "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the
woman that he would beat her: he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that
he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant".

20
However, without assuming the existence of this strange, male-viewpoint story (which has no other
reference in the Quran), we can translate the verse as:
Yusuf Ali Reformist
And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith:
and break not (thy oath)... (38:44)
Take in your hand a bundle and travel with it, and
do not break your oath… (38:44)
Another Take on 4:34
In keeping with the translation we have used in 38:44, we translate the controversial "beating" portion
of 4:34 as "leave her" (Literally, the phrase might also be rendered "strike them out," meaning, in
essence, "Separate yourselves from such wives.").

A Coherent Understanding
When we read 4:34, we should not understand iDRiBuhunna as "beat those women." We should,
instead, remember that this word has multiple meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with
marital disloyalty on the part of a wife. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior, the husband
should begin to address the problem by giving advice. If this does not work, he should stop sleeping
in the same bed and see if this produces a change in behavior. And if there is still no improvement in
the situation, the husband has the right to compel a separation.
The Quran gives analogous rights to women who must deal with disloyal husbands (4:128); this is in
accordance with the principle that women have "similar" rights to men in such situations, as stated
clearly in 2:228. These would hardly be "similar" rights if women had to suffer physical beatings for
marital disloyalty, and men did not!
Beating women who are cheating and betraying the marriage contract is not an ultimate solution, and
it is not consistent with the promise of equitability and comparable rights that appears in 2:228. (This
is an important consideration, because the Quran proclaims, and Muslims believe, that it is utterly free
from inconsistencies.) But "striking out" the disloyal wives – that is, separating from them -- is
consistent, and it is the best solution. It is also fair.




But noone is arguing that it means "to beat" in 13.17, you are creating a strawman. Or you are seeking to confuse the audience.

In 13.17, from the context, it would not make sense for the word to mean "to beat". Just like in 4.34, it would not make sense to mean "to explain" or "to travel".
Which was exactly my point . Double standards .
 
Apr 2009
514
#85
Which was exactly my point . Double standards .
OK lazyman, I am not wasting any more time on your sophistry. It is obvious that you are just seeking to bury the factual information that I have presented under irrelevent details so that people become bored with the discussion and/or cannot find the useful information.

I already addressed the points you have made yet you have copy-pasted the exact same information again.

It is not a double standard to study both verses in their context and conclude that in 4.34 it cannot mean "to explain" and in 13.17 it cannot mean "to hit". That is actually the exact opposite of double standards, it is applying the same methodology to determine the meaning of the sentences. You cannot "explain a wife" just like you cannot "hit the truth and falsehood".
 
Mar 2011
1,209
The Carolinas
#87
So much for taking it to another thread guys...

Anyways, FB has seemed to have backed off (for now) on the page, it's postings, and it's admins. The annoucement came about a week ago and the page has gotten back into the swing of things. Hopefully, things will stay on the right track this time!

Some more encouraging numbers, since I posted again 7 days ago, the page has gone up from 60,000+ to 68,000+, that's 8,000 people in just one week!

Also, from the page:
أطلقت حملة "انا مع انتفاضة المرأة" في ١ أكتوبر، ٢٠١٢. في ١٠ نوفمبر، أكثر من ٩٣٢ انساء و رجال، من مختلف الخلفيات والمعتقدات، قد عبروا عن آرائهم. انها بدأت للتو.

This photo campaign was launched on October 1st, 2012. On November 10, more than 932 women and men, from different backgrounds and beliefs, have already expressed their voices. It has only just started.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.471873109510184.107909.279245495439614&type=3
 
Feb 2010
1,563
#88
women rights and the amount of islam in a country is a disproportional relationship.
KSA= most islam/worst women rights
BIH= less islam/more women rights :)
That's the sad truth, but don't tell that to all those Islamists and even ordinary Muslims who boast that Islam gave to women "all rights" and think that Western women are the ones who are actually oppressed and exploited and that secularism and rights of women is a synonym for indencency, promiscuity, prostitution etc. and basically a Western conspiracy against Islam. ;)
 
Nov 2009
3,471
Nebraska
#89
Beating of women happens everywhere. It irritates me when people focus on the Middle East.

Is Quran to be blamed for beating of women in, say, Korea?
 
Apr 2009
514
#90
Beating of women happens everywhere. It irritates me when people focus on the Middle East.

Is Quran to be blamed for beating of women in, say, Korea?
I would guess that beating your wife is a crime in both North and South Korea. So yes it happens in Korea, but can you be prosecuted for it? You bet!

Beating your wife is not a crime in Saudi Arabia, it is believed to be a God-given right laid out by Allah in the Quran.

All societies have domestic violence, and even in the West it was considered natural and normal to beat one's wife about 100-200 years ago. It is only in the last 100 years or so that laws have been enacted protecting women from violence. But countries in teh islamic world are still lagging behind teh rest of the world in this regard, and that is definately because of the Quran.
 

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