The war of American independence was won mainly by the help of Spain,

#31
You remind me of another Spanish poster here. Maybe what Spain did was more important. However, France's army and fleet were decisive at Yorktown, so that gets more press. Most of what Spain did was covert, sending money and supplies. The fighting in Florida, the west, and at sea mostly didn't have much to do with helping the rebelling colonies.
Exactly,

Britain had an Empire to run and supply and an Empire's enemies, they had pressures from all quarters from numerous nations.

Fundamentally it was a culmination of all the help either directly or non-directly that the Americans received which didn't allow Britain to focus on keeping America.

In fact I think its overplayed on how much Britain actually prioritised wanting to keep America, I think history shows that most of Britain's preoccupation with America was to stop France taking control of it, the Americans were viewed as a British colony, letting some rebellious British foreign subjects keep an "outpost" which needed farming, colonizing, expansion, investment and fortifying, wasn't something the Brits were ever going to have the man power to do directly from the Crown's resources and so letting them have it was not as nearly as much of an issue as France controlling it.

Once it was clear America could protect its interests from foreign powers like Spain, Britain was laid back on letting it go in comparison to other concerns.
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
5,873
#32
In retrospect, given the later loss of Spanish American colonies and war with the US much later, it was a mistake for Spain to ally with the US. It is hard to say what would have happened 40+ years later to the Spanish empire if Spain had taken a different approach and events had been different in the American Revolution.

However, Spain's policy was pragmatic and fairly effective in using the alliance with France and the US to retake territory from Britain. Spain may have had more soldiers in what is now the US and as big a fleet in the area. However, unlike Spain, France used its army and fleet to directly help the rebellious colonists.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,125
Spain
#33
This Robert Liston? :

Robert Liston (diplomat) - Wikipedia

Also, wouldn't it have been considered a family betrayal for the Spanish Bourbons to fight against the country of their ancestors?
+1 Exactly Robert Liston. It was a pity the mutual distrust avoided a very fruitful relationship for both empires . Yes, for the Bourbons you are right. It would be considered as a betrayal to the ancestors.. but they had a heritage to give to their successors....

If you can read Spanish you can read the

Memoria secreta presentada al rey Carlos III por S.E. el conde de Aranda, sobre la independencia de las colonias inglesas, después de haber firmado el tratado de París de 1783.

(Secret report presented to King Charles III by His Excellency the count of Aranda, on the independence of the English colonies, after having signed the Treaty of Paris of 1783.).

For the count.... France supported the American rebellion because France had nothing to lost... not French Empire at all in 1776!!!! But Spain supported the Rebellion when Spain was the largest Empire in the world in 1776.
Count Aranda thought any European Power (not Britain nor France nor Netherland...nor any other) had any power to seize the Spanish Dominions in the West Hemisphere... what Spaniards named West Indies. So.. Britain was not a real threat...as Cartagena de Indias in the past... and Buenos Aires in the future evidenced.

But USA were different... for the Count of Aranda... USA would be the country seized the Empire!!!... But I prefer the Count of Aranda speaks instead of me:

Esta República federal ha nacido pigmea, por decirlo así, y ha tenido necesidad de apoyo y de las fuerzas de dos potencias tan poderosas como la España y la Francia, para conseguir su independencia. Vendrá un día en que será un gigante, un coloso temible en esas comarcas. Olvidará entonces sus beneficios que ha recibido de las dos potencias, y no pensará más que en su engrandecimiento. La libertad de conciencia, la facilidad de establecer nuevas poblaciones sobre inmensos terrenos, así como las ventajas con que brinda el nuevo gobierno, atraerán agricultores y artesanos de todas las naciones, porque los hombres corren siempre tras la fortuna, y dentro de algunos años veremos con mucho dolor la existencia amenazadora del coloso de que hablo...

(We can say this federal republic have just born pygmy.. and has needed the support and forces of two powers as powerful as Spain and France to achieve the independence. But there will come a day when it will be a giant, a fearsome colossus. Then, they will forget the benefits they have received from the two Powers and they will only think in their aggrandizement. Freedom of conscience, the ease of establishing new populations on immense land, as well as the advantages offered by the new government, will attract farmers and artisans from all nations, because men always run after fortune, and in a few years we will see with much pain the threatening existence of the colossus of which I speak (...)

Aranda was right.... Spain didn´t fear any European country... in the West Hemisphere was "unbeatable" for European Powers...but the birth of a country... based on liberalism and enligthment....it was too much for the old Empire.


If I was born in those days... for sure I would have supported to Liston and I would have tried to achieve an alliance ... if it was possible in 1793... for sure it would have been possible in 1773!!!

And sincerely I think nobody in this forum think an American rebels + French victory over Spanish and British Empires!!!!

But history is what is....not what we wanted... and Liston and Aranda... were not heard.... Earth would have become so diferent today!!! (not better... not worst but yes different)... For sure... in this nice forum.... not american at all! But Catholic King´s or His Most Gracious Majesty´s subjects
 

Edratman

Ad Honorem
Feb 2009
6,275
Eastern PA
#34
But USA were different... for the Count of Aranda... USA would be the country seized the Empire!!!... But I prefer the Count of Aranda speaks instead of me:

Esta República federal ha nacido pigmea, por decirlo así, y ha tenido necesidad de apoyo y de las fuerzas de dos potencias tan poderosas como la España y la Francia, para conseguir su independencia. Vendrá un día en que será un gigante, un coloso temible en esas comarcas. Olvidará entonces sus beneficios que ha recibido de las dos potencias, y no pensará más que en su engrandecimiento. La libertad de conciencia, la facilidad de establecer nuevas poblaciones sobre inmensos terrenos, así como las ventajas con que brinda el nuevo gobierno, atraerán agricultores y artesanos de todas las naciones, porque los hombres corren siempre tras la fortuna, y dentro de algunos años veremos con mucho dolor la existencia amenazadora del coloso de que hablo...

(We can say this federal republic have just born pygmy.. and has needed the support and forces of two powers as powerful as Spain and France to achieve the independence. But there will come a day when it will be a giant, a fearsome colossus. Then, they will forget the benefits they have received from the two Powers and they will only think in their aggrandizement. Freedom of conscience, the ease of establishing new populations on immense land, as well as the advantages offered by the new government, will attract farmers and artisans from all nations, because men always run after fortune, and in a few years we will see with much pain the threatening existence of the colossus of which I speak (...)
WOW! Extraordinary prescience by the Count of Aranda !!!
 
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betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
5,873
#35
Once it was clear America could protect its interests from foreign powers like Spain, Britain was laid back on letting it go in comparison to other concerns.
I am not sure if Britain was initially happy about letting the US go. However, with the war with France and Spain, and with the war not going well in America, Britain was happy to sign a separate peace with the US. The peace ignored all of Spain's gains in what is now the US and did not mention France or Spain. The US and Britain divided what was then northwestern America and ignored the Spanish presence.
 
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Frank81

Ad Honorem
Feb 2010
4,968
Canary Islands-Spain
#36
The War of American independence was won mainly by American colonists

Spain greatly contributed to the American effort, probably more than France. However, whatever material and financial assistance the French and the Spanish had provided, it would be irrelevant if the Americans had not take the brunt of the fighting
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,125
Spain
#37
I am not sure if Britain was initially happy about letting the US go. However, with the war with France and Spain, and with the war not going well in America, Britain was happy to sign a separate peace with the US. The peace ignored all of Spain's gains in what is now the US and did not mention France or Spain. The US and Britain divided what was then northwestern America and ignored the Spanish presence.
Well Betgo... Britain signatured the Peace with Spain in Versaille on January 20th 1783. UK yielded Floridas (West and East) a. Menorca, , Honduras . Spain yielded Bahamas to UK . The Peace between Spain and UK was ratified by George III on January 25th and by Charles III on January 31st, 1783.

So.. yes the peace never ignored the Spain´s gains...(not the whole of spaniards were Down syndrome... and they were not so stupid to win a war and not obliged to UK sign the peace with the Spanish conquests).

The original treaty as it was written in 1783 (French-Spanish-Latin versions). it was signatured by Britain and the Russian diplomats were the witnesses

Art 5: Sa Majesté britanniques cedé en outre, garantit en toute propieté á Sa Majesté Catholique la Florida Orientale, ainsi que la Floride Occidentale. (...)

About Northwest...Spanish had settled in Alaska (Valdes and Córdoba), Vancouver (named Isla de Quadras) and Nea Bay (Fuerte Nuñez Gaona). Vancouver was exchanged... Vancouver for Falklands.. Spain evacuated Vancouver and Britain Falklands. Vancouver was evacuated in 1795.

About Nea Bay.. Fuerte Nuñez Gaona garrisoned with mountains troops from Catalonian Pyrenees was left in the year 1792.. The Alaska settlements were left around 1795-96. But the Spanish rights on Alaska, Western Coast in Canada, Washington and oregon continued till the year 1819 when Spain yielded the rights to USA (Treaty of Adam - Onís). So.. not relations at all between 1783 Versaille and the spanish Rights on Alaska!..

capture1.jpg

Spanish exploration in Alaska and the names... Kodiak was baptized as Isla de las Dos Cabezas
 
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