Thessalians- the northernmost greeks

Oct 2018
2,128
Sydney
However, macedonians, paeonians, and thracians didn't worship a god upon which their life depended. They worshipped a god of merriness, of unity. Carthage and magna graecia on the other hand worshipped a goddess of grain, of life. It had nothing to do with unity, because both carthage and ancient greeks were newcomers to sicily. They both worshipped a common goddess out of common interest.
Neither instances of worship probably had anything to do with unity, and both Dionysos and Demeter/Kore are associated with fertility and thus life. To suggest that the Thracians and Macedonians adopted a mutual god for reasons of unity needs to be backed up with an argument rather than an assertion. I'm also now assuming that you've fabricated this god Leivinos anyway, since I can't find anything about him and you have consistently failed to provide a source.

Edit: I see that Ken is probably not coming back, but for people observing this thread this post required a response.
 
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At Each Kilometer

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
4,231
Bulgaria
:(

And I, hoping to have (finally!!!) the proof that the Belgians, the bravests amongst the Gauls, where a Thracian tribe !
Welcome back deaf tuner!

I have actually a proof of what you wrote above. As you know my ppl live in the land of these ancient Thracians and their blood is flowing in our veins, er, yeah.

Our PM recently visited the mightiest President on this planet.

1.jpg

Yes, he is Prime Minister of Belgium, ergo Belgae was ancient union of Thracian tribes and both Walons and Vlaams are descendants of Thracian with a bit of Frankish admixture i guess.

EDIT: I forgot the funniest part. This media later officially apologised to the embassy of Bangladesh for the mistake (?), so I guess these Indo-Greeks which were in fact Indo-Thracians migrated to what is today Republic of Bangladesh, so indeed it looks like one can find Thracian descendants in every area of the globe.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2013
1,088
Breakdancing on the Moon.
You mean this?



Who is Heschiyus?

Edit:
The closest person may be this one:


But I never found anything about him mentioning Leivinos. Except that same probably fabricated picture from facebook. Care to provide a source?

and for that matter what is "Ancient Macedonian language"?
I can actually answer this, though not an expert on Thracian linguistics (such as it is!) and without my old copy of Detschew's "Die thrakischen Sprachreste" [= Fragments of the Thracian language]. As usual, this is nationalistic nonsense. Let me step in with my classicist hat, hopefully this post can percolate a bit and we can use it to fight back a little. Let's unpack this!

By Heschiyus (a phonological impossibility!) they mean Hesychius, a Greek grammarian and lexicographer from the 5th/6th century. His work is a treasure trove for Greek linguistics (and the Macedonian dialect in particular), it contains so many rare and obscure dialectical words with glosses. Sometimes this definitions work, often they're quite crap (they didn't have sophisticated linguistics, until the 19th century nobody did outside of North India), but they're always interesting.

The obscurity of the text and its nature often makes it a victim for nationalists who can't read Greek and expect others in their debates to be unable to do so.

Let's take this god, Leivinos. The poster, the facebook, and all Fyromian nationalists try to break it down as lei + vino (with a random s). The first part would come from Slavic root lȋj, which means to pour, the second part comes from the word for wine - ultimately of Greek origin.

Now this is patently absurd. It requires the Thracians to be Slavs, or the Slavs to be there, millennia earlier than they are attested and to either be synonymous with or mixed with Thracians. All this we know is false. Also, look at the Greek word in Greek letters, Λειβῆνος. What do you see? We see that the phonology of this, actual word, doesn't match up with the modern Slavic Frankenstein...because they're going off the modern Greek pronunciation!
In modern Greek, the word would be pronounced something like /Livinos/ but in ancient Greek more like /LeibEnos/ with the capital e representing a long clear sound.

When you look at the actual Greek text, moreover, not only does it not mention Thracians at all...the etymology is perfectly clear. It's so clear that a small Greek child could tell you. Leibenos comes from the word 'to pour/to make ablation', /leibo/.

Hesychius in fact gives us two definitions, and I translate roughly for you:

Leibenos: "Dionysos"
Leibein (a verbal infinitive): "to make ablation" + a line from the Iliad to demonstrate usage.

I hope that helps clear this up! That's the actual linguistics, what the actual text says, and I think we can all guess the rationale behind the fake stuff...
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,765
Portugal
I can actually answer this, though not an expert on Thracian linguistics (such as it is!) and without my old copy of Detschew's "Die thrakischen Sprachreste" [= Fragments of the Thracian language]. As usual, this is nationalistic nonsense. Let me step in with my classicist hat, hopefully this post can percolate a bit and we can use it to fight back a little. Let's unpack this!

By Heschiyus (a phonological impossibility!) they mean Hesychius, a Greek grammarian and lexicographer from the 5th/6th century. His work is a treasure trove for Greek linguistics (and the Macedonian dialect in particular), it contains so many rare and obscure dialectical words with glosses. Sometimes this definitions work, often they're quite crap (they didn't have sophisticated linguistics, until the 19th century nobody did outside of North India), but they're always interesting.

The obscurity of the text and its nature often makes it a victim for nationalists who can't read Greek and expect others in their debates to be unable to do so.

Let's take this god, Leivinos. The poster, the facebook, and all Fyromian nationalists try to break it down as lei + vino (with a random s). The first part would come from Slavic root lȋj, which means to pour, the second part comes from the word for wine - ultimately of Greek origin.

Now this is patently absurd. It requires the Thracians to be Slavs, or the Slavs to be there, millennia earlier than they are attested and to either be synonymous with or mixed with Thracians. All this we know is false. Also, look at the Greek word in Greek letters, Λειβῆνος. What do you see? We see that the phonology of this, actual word, doesn't match up with the modern Slavic Frankenstein...because they're going off the modern Greek pronunciation!
In modern Greek, the word would be pronounced something like /Livinos/ but in ancient Greek more like /LeibEnos/ with the capital e representing a long clear sound.

When you look at the actual Greek text, moreover, not only does it not mention Thracians at all...the etymology is perfectly clear. It's so clear that a small Greek child could tell you. Leibenos comes from the word 'to pour/to make ablation', /leibo/.

Hesychius in fact gives us two definitions, and I translate roughly for you:

Leibenos: "Dionysos"
Leibein (a verbal infinitive): "to make ablation" + a line from the Iliad to demonstrate usage.

I hope that helps clear this up! That's the actual linguistics, what the actual text says, and I think we can all guess the rationale behind the fake stuff...
Thanks. Good post.
 
Sep 2017
822
United States
It may be inappropriate to ask, and I apologize if it is, but I’m curious to what his agenda is/was here?

I don’t know a ton about the Thracians, but is there really a Thracian nationalist movement? How does something like that even exist?

What are people going to be touting next, being Etruscan? I just really don’t get what the point is here.
 
Feb 2019
1,259
Serbia
It may be inappropriate to ask, and I apologize if it is, but I’m curious to what his agenda is/was here?

I don’t know a ton about the Thracians, but is there really a Thracian nationalist movement? How does something like that even exist?

What are people going to be touting next, being Etruscan? I just really don’t get what the point is here.
Not Thracian nationalism. It seems to have been Macedonian nationalism and the idea that Ancient Macedonians and Thracians were somehow direct predecessors of Slavic Macedonians. He also seems to have pushed the ''suppressed history'' narrative (I.E. What is written in the history books was fabricated by the evil great powers and the truth is that [Insert nationality here, in this case Macedonians.] had some super advanced civilisation or influenced the entire world or something like that.) and used common crackpot tactics such as denying scholarship from nationalities he doesn't like and denying anything that didn't fit his narrative.

Post 35 in the Thracian thread in particular should tell you his stance: Who were the thracians?

As for people touting Etruscans: Believe it or not there are some Serbian crackpots that tried to claim their script was actually some form of Serbian Cyrillic or that the Celts are somehow descended from Serbs. Extreme nationalism can spawn some pretty hilarious claims sometimes.