Tiananmen Square Massacre

Oct 2013
4,564
Canada
#11
Was there any report of soldiers badly beaten or dead by protesters before the tanks and martial law being promulgated in Beijing? That's the one billion dollar question.
Probably not, but we cannot assume the opposite has to be true by default.

Personally, I don't think protestors armed with clubs would be able to pull out soldiers and beat them to death and have the time to mutilate their corpses if tanks were already in the city. If the issue was escalated to the point when tanks had to be called in, the soldiers would have been armed to the teeth and wore helmets, like on the video recordings and pictures we see (referencing the clip with soldiers walking through the burning square). But on the pictures of the dead soldiers, we see peak caps on them.
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,000
Lisbon, Portugal
#12
Probably not, but we cannot assume the opposite has to be true by default.

Personally, I don't think protestors armed with clubs would be able to pull out soldiers and beat them to death and have the time to mutilate their corpses if tanks were already in the city. If the issue was escalated to the point when tanks had to be called in, the soldiers would have been armed to the teeth and wore helmets, like on the video recordings and pictures we see (referencing the clip with soldiers walking through the burning square). But on the pictures of the dead soldiers, we see peak caps on them.
The report (produced by Li Peng) circulated in the POLITBURO to justify martial law in June, didn't mention anything about instances of violence or soldiers being beaten or dead. The report wrote that the protesters camping in the square were "counter-revolutionary agents", "radicals" and "Burgoisie liberals" and a potential threat against the political stability of the nation - there was a very clear attempt to compare those young students with the radical students of the "Cultural Revolution" that spread chaos throughout the nation during the 1960s. The senior members of the CCP feared they would get widely popular among the youth and the working classes and consequently feared for the return of the 1960s period, so they felt that the protest movement should be quelsch with total force, mercilessly and very quickly.

The soldiers in fact were armed to the teeth and armed with battle rifles with battle bullets, the ones that wore peak caps were the People's armed police that were already present in Beijing and would provide assistance for the shock troops during the clearing of the square.

According to the Chinese government, only ten soldiers of the PLA and 13 policemen got killed in the event, and they all died after the Government gave orders to clear the square and to implement martial law through the entire city.
 
Oct 2013
4,564
Canada
#13
The report (produced by Li Peng) circulated in the POLITBURO to justify martial law in June, didn't mention anything about instances of violence or soldiers being beaten or dead. The report wrote that the protesters camping in the square were "counter-revolutionary agents", "radicals" and "Burgoisie liberals" and a potential threat against the political stability of the nation - there was a very clear attempt to compare those young students with the radical students of the "Cultural Revolution" that spread chaos throughout the nation during the 1960s. The senior members of the CCP feared they would get widely popular among the youth and the working classes and consequently feared for the return of the 1960s period, so they felt that the protest movement should be quelsch with total force, mercilessly and very quickly.

The soldiers in fact were armed to the teeth and armed with battle rifles with battle bullets, the ones that wore peak caps were the People's armed police that were already present in Beijing and would provide assistance for the shock troops during the clearing of the square.

According to the Chinese government, only ten soldiers of the PLA and 13 policemen got killed in the event, and they all died after the Government gave orders to clear the square and to implement martial law through the entire city.
Thanks for the information
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,000
Lisbon, Portugal
#14
Thanks for the information
Another important information:

Probably no one got killed in the square itself and probably just no more than 20 students actually died during the implementation of martial law.

The hundreds of civilians that died were the working class protesters that were camped outside of the square to form a cordon in solidarity with the students and Beijing residents that were pissed off with the military when they implemented the martial law. It was mostly those angry working class protesters that were involved in the linchyngs of soldiers and policemen (as a reaction after the military had opened fire against protesters) and there are enumerous reports of student protesters protecting the lives of wounded soldiers and also enumerous instances of soldiers refusing to carry out orders against civilians during the event.
 
#18
Our betrayal of the people's republic

I am asking, not asserting. If there is anything in support of RollingWave's 3rd point, I'd like to read it.

There is good reason to conjecture that it was likely, but not necessarily condemn that it did. The CIA does have a history, and a specific one relating to China (Tibet, Dalai Lama, payroll, training, and uprising.)

I also did not attempt to bash the entire movement. I did state there were genuine protestors who wanted democracy.
The historical context you must know is the Cold War which was fought for freer movements of capital and not for democracy. The subverted democratic movements were not in China alone but they were the most visible . The public was rightfully outraged. They were also shamelessly betrayed by the free leaders who deceived us with secretive diplomacy for the sake of stable capital investment. The Chinese people were the greatest natural resource for capital investment. There was no chance the protests could have overcome the American leadership's anti-democratic ethos: George Herbert Walker Bush and Margret Thatcher were in no way morally outraged by Deng's dictatorship and massacre. Deng was made a business partner of the West. Bush wrote letter of friendship as a business partner and man of the CIA might to a friend. You can read it in his twice published selected letters. I can give you declassified documents released by the CIA of further information andother resources if you wish.
 
Feb 2017
373
Cardiff,UK
#19
Wikileaks already confirmed that the square itself was a bloodless event, it's just that a bunch of reporters outright lied about. The true bloodbath was mostly located in another section of the city, Muxidi, and the majority of victims here weren't protesting for democracy, they were not students. They were workers protesting the end of the "Iron Bowl", so if anything they didn't like China moving away from Communism. The students had a very bright future ahead of them, China had a great lack of college degree employees back then, so when push came to shove most students backed down quite peacefully because they had a lot to lose. Workers had more at stake (or so they thought), for they feared that without the government provided Iron Bowl and Iron Wage, they won't be able to put food on the table. These are the type of people who probably thought they didn't have much to lose. Ergo they were more resistant, and thus ended up being gunned down. But students, not workers, being gunned down defending democracy, as opposed to economical reasons, is simply more of a click-bait.

I suppose on both sides of the Ocean, students with college degrees are simply considered more important than workers. On one side the TianAnMen protestors were described as champions of freedom, whereas on the other side they were described as foreign-backed rioters. The workers who were protesting for a stable income were completely underrepresented, especially in the TianAnMen Square Massacre.
While WikiLeaks can be useful for seeing behind certain things I hardly think it can be used as a 100pecent source that it was bloodless compared with actual eyewitness accounts
 
Feb 2016
567
ROK
#20
There was no chance the protests could have overcome the American leadership's anti-democratic ethos: George Herbert Walker Bush and Margret Thatcher were in no way morally outraged by Deng's dictatorship and massacre. Deng was made a business partner of the West. Bush wrote letter of friendship as a business partner and man of the CIA might to a friend. You can read it in his twice published selected letters. I can give you declassified documents released by the CIA of further information andother resources if you wish.
I remember that Bush expressed outrage at the Tiananmen Massacre. He cut relations with Beijing. Prior to the massacre, my dad went to China on a business trip. The protests were going on when my dad was there. Business with the Chinese company had to be called off when South Korea followed the US and cut off relations with China. Many countries did this. I don't remember when the relations were reopened as it got less media attention. It was either during Bush's or Clinton's presidency.
 

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