Tocharians and Turk

Midas

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,129
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
Hello!

While studying the languages of the Tocharians, I suspected that some words are Turkic. My suspicions were confirmed after reading some monographs on Turkic loanwords. I know that where Uyghurs live today is where Tocharians lived. My question is if there is any information on their early contacts and how the Turkic tribes moving in the Tocharian lands integrated/assimilated?
 
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Midas

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,129
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
The title was supposed to be Tocharians and Turks. If any mod can correct it, I would be grateful!
 

Vajra

Ad Honorem
May 2013
4,332
India
They were located just south-west of Altai(Turko-Mongol homeland) so there would have been good contacts b/w them.

But the attested earliest usage of Tocharian is from around 300 CE,we don't have Turkic records dating to this period.Possibly,the majority of loans are from later Turkic expansions.
 

Midas

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,129
Scandinavia, Balkans, Anatolia, Hatay
They were located just south-west of Altai(Turko-Mongol homeland) so there would have been good contacts b/w them.

But the attested earliest usage of Tocharian is from around 300 CE,we don't have Turkic records dating to this period.Possibly,the majority of loans are from later Turkic expansions.
Yes, it is those later expansion contacts I am looking for. However, the matter is a bit special I guess. It is not like people are expected to know about early Tocharian - Turkic contacts. I am asking here apparently, because I couldn't find as much as I had hoped for.
 
Mar 2013
1,038
Breakdancing on the Moon.
Yes it's pretty much accepted that there is Turkic influence on Toch, hence the redevelopment of postpositions as extraneous cases (reduction of stops too?). Only the nom gen acc and voc are PIE derived, the instr, all, abl, etc all come from these redeveloped postpositions. I think which postpos' vary between strains α and β too.

Lot of fun stuff in the language and it's a shame I've never had many opportunities to dig into its corpses and wiggle around.
 
May 2009
1,335
The belief is that Tocharians originated further east in Siberia and northern China, places where they would've had lots of contact with Turkic tribes. So they could have picked up Turkic loan words before they ever arrived in Xinjiang. The red hair and caucasoid features that were common in Tocharians were still present in places like Siberia and Mongolia well into the middle ages. Genghis Khan's entire clan was made up of red-haired, grey-eyed people. They weren't caucasian, but they certainly had traces of ancient Tocharian blood. The Kirghiz of the Yenisei valley, Siberia were also red-haired with some traditional caucasoid features. It's believed they were an ancient Tocharian group that eventually became absorbed and "Turkified".
 
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Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
The belief is that Tocharians originated further east in Siberia and northern China, places where they would've had lots of contact with Turkic tribes.
There's no evidence that the Tocharians originated further east. Those Caucasoid mummies are only found in the Tarim Basin. Further to the east all the remains were Mongoloid. It's most likely that they originated further west, since they spoke an Indo-European language.
 
Nov 2014
1,979
Bhuloka
The belief is that Tocharians originated further east in Siberia and northern China, places where they would've had lots of contact with Turkic tribes. So they could have picked up Turkic loan words before they ever arrived in Xinjiang. The red hair and caucasoid features that were common in Tocharians were still present in places like Siberia and Mongolia well into the middle ages. Genghis Khan's entire clan was made up of red-haired, grey-eyed people. They weren't caucasian, but they certainly had traces of ancient Tocharian blood. The Kirghiz of the Yenisei valley, Siberia were also red-haired with some traditional caucasoid features. It's believed they were an ancient Tocharian group that eventually became absorbed and "Turkified".
The mongols could also have got those genes from pazyryk people and other scythians.
 
Jun 2014
4,516
India
Hello!

While studying the languages of the Tocharians, I suspected that some words are Turkic. My suspicions were confirmed after reading some monographs on Turkic loanwords. I know that where Uyghurs live today is where Tocharians lived. My question is if there is any information on their early contacts and how the Turkic tribes moving in the Tocharian lands integrated/assimilated?
It is very interesting case. In modern day Chinese Xinjiang, some parts were inhabited by Tocharians( mainly in Turfan and Aksu) who are an IE people speaking a Centum language which is quite unusual as slavic, Iranic and IAs all are satem languages. Due to Buddhism, these 'Tocharians'( they never called themselves Tocharians and the term was used in history for Kushans and other allied people who were Iranic) adopted Brahmi script and we have some written materials in form of Tocharian A and Tocharian B. Now, a Turkic group which was called Uyghur invaded the area and assimilated tocharians by tenth century. This is the time when Tocharians must have had borrowed loanwords from Turkic . The Uighurs unlike other Turkic groups created a great culture there on Tocharian base and Uighur language has left a rich literature.

These Uighurs who were Nestorians, Buddhists and Manicheans were finished off by Muslim Turks of qarluk branch, most were assimilated, rest fled to inner parts of China. The karluk turks lived in all these areas and in 1910s under influence of nationalism picked up the term 'uighur'.

So it were Buddhist Uighurs who came into contact with Tocharians and who left some influence, modern day 'Uighurs' are karluk invaders who finished real Uighurs. Almost most of tarim basin was occupied by karluks.

I really doubt that one gets to see Turkic words as early as fourth century.