True Territorial Integrity of Chinese dynasties

Jan 2015
955
EARTH
I would like the ask the members of this sub-forum to verify the claims of these maps. These maps are most often posted on the Japanese internet, and are the main maps of their Japanese wiki articles. This surprises me as I've never seen these kinds of map for any other civilization or Empire.











Compare these to other maps that show strong demarcations of borders, clear territories that they have for other cultures

Assy, RM, Mry, Achaem





I frequently hear objections from their (Jp) side about the territorial integrity of the Sinitic countries - but not for any other civilizations. Was the integration of territories in the Roman, Achamenid, etc... much better than Ancient China? I know China had a quite strong bureaucracy and commanderies/garrisons, so that the discussion comes up is surprising. I don't think this is the impression I've gotten from reading, but I'd like to hear from HKg, HSc, etc...
 
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Sep 2015
35
???
I think as long as the central authority had power over those territories then it should be considered as part of the empire. For example, if the Chinese emperors can summon, enthrone, dethrone, ask for troops contribution or even execute any of those far flung chieftains or kings of those vassal states then those states should be counted as part of the Chinese empire regardless of whether there were Chinese military/administration presence in it or not.(As long as those vassal states remain obedient to central authority)
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,501
China
the caption says the maps draw the territory of "sinitic civilization"....

I don't know how can we draw a map for a civilization...and I don't know how they can find primary source to support that.
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
the caption says the maps draw the territory of "sinitic civilization"....

I don't know how can we draw a map for a civilization...and I don't know how they can find primary source to support that.
A civilizations has extents to where its influence begins and ends. Perhaps this is the mapmaker's perception of different spheres of what we now call Chinese civilization over periods of history.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,501
China
A civilizations has extents to where its influence begins and ends. Perhaps this is the mapmaker's perception of different spheres of what we now call Chinese civilization over periods of history.
I know what it means. I don't know how to do it. how do you measure "the influence"? how is it possible to draw a map with a precision like those ones, which have some isolated areas as large as modern cities. and how could a civilization developed like that (so many isolated areas), they jumped? miles and miles?
 
Aug 2014
1,832
Huntington Beach CA
I think those maps open up some interesting questions. Such as who were the non Han people interspersed with the Han Chinese at those times?
It's as if we can see the expansion of Han Chinese at the expense of the people living in South China. We don't normally make note of things like Fujian being non-Chinese at the beginning of the Han Dynasty. Where it gets important is the fact that the period in which Han Chinese expand into south China is the same period in which Ausromelanesians start expanding overseas into Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia, starting with Taiwan. Maybe the Han drove them out.
And it's interesting that the Japanese of all people pick up on this. Yayoi, which became Yamato may have settled Japan from Korea because of just such settlement by Han in Lliaoning. Other people are driven into Korea. The Koreans drive the Yayoi across the strait to Kyushu and Honshu, pushing the Ainu Jomon before them.
 
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Aug 2013
1,415
South Korea
The 4th picture from the top is the one of the best representations of Western Han territory I've seen so far.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,501
China
The 4th picture from the top is the one of the best representations of Western Han territory I've seen so far.
infact, carefully look at them, you found the 4th is the same one with the 5th. however one is for 2AD, one is for 189AD.
 
Jan 2015
955
EARTH
These maps are also used on the English Wikipedia.
Oh really? I don't see it on their main pages of Zhou, Shang, Han. I see it for page of Spring and Autumn period being introduced as "urbanization" however, it's completely different from the introduction as the territorial integrity of Ancient-Classical period sinitic countries.