Trying teenagers as adults

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,281
Brassicaland
#21
@Chlodio

Thanks for that.

Appalled, but not surprised.

As a non American, I have long considered the US political system to be arguably the most corrupt in the developed word.

This is an opinion which seems to have been shared by one of the greatest American public intellectuals of the twentieth century (imo), Gore Vida. Eg Vidal said in an interview about 20 years ago that "anyone who becomes the US president has been bought and paid for ten times over". He said and wrote far worse in his many books and on TV. I think that may be a bit harsh.

Again as an outsider ,it seems to me that the lobbying/patronage system seems completely corrupt. I'm thinking specifically of the political power of the NRA, the Health Insurance Industry and the oil industry (fracking). I guess you can now add the private prisons system. I have no doubt there are dozens of vested interests who gain political favours through donations to political parties, and to individual politicians.

Not saying the same thing never happens in my country. I'm sure it does. The differences seem to be the amount of money involved ,the amounts seem much smaller ,and the corruption less obvious, only becoming public after some kind of major investigation.--and we've had some beauties, EG; Trade union corruption, systemic police corruption in three states .(we only have 6 states and a territory) . That was just in case you thought I'm being "holier than thou".I'm not.

I say yet again, I'm an outsider. The foregoing is opinion based on information gleaned over decades, much of it from not entirely reliable sources. I apologise if I am factually incorrect
I am reading Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring, and find the American practices appalling as well.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#22
@VHS

"Holding a relatively lower age for criminal responsibility is a better deterrence; even if it does not deter 100%, it is still an effective move. " '

Pretty sure the claim that punishment as a deterrent in crime has not yet been established as a general principle., remaining strongly contested. I have a sneaking suspicion that attitudes may reflect ideological ideals as well as political expediency and vested interests.

My opinion is that I would expect deterrent be less effective on juveniles because by definition they are less mature, and less aware of the consequences of their actions. This would include an unrealistic attitude towards being apprehended as well as underestimating the severity of punishment. To be fair, I understand this is also common with a lot of so-called adult criminals.

I think the jury's still out on this issue..

*******************************************************************************************************

From Wikipedia, but there's a truckload of information available online.

"Deterrence is the use of punishment as a threat which is considered as a means to prevent people from offending or to reduce the probability and/or level of offending.

The concept of deterrence has two key assumptions: the first is that specific punishments imposed on offenders could prevent the offender from committing further crimes; the second is that fear of punishment could prevent others from committing similar crimes.[1]

Deterrence is often contrasted with retributivism, which holds that punishment is a necessary consequence of a crime which the offender deserves and its severity should be calculated based on the gravity of the wrong done. Rehabilitation is another different approach which attempts to reform the offender rather than using punishment."


"Measuring and estimating the effects of criminal sanction on subsequent criminal behaviour is the historic and conceptual core of criminology.[11] Despite numerous studies using a variety of data sources, sanctions, crime types, statistical methods and theoretical approaches, there remains little agreement in the scientific literature about whether, how, under what circumstances, to what extent, for which crimes, at what cost, for which individuals, and perhaps most importantly, in which direction do various aspects of contemporary criminal sanctions affect subsequent criminal behaviour. There are extensive reviews of this literature with somewhat conflicting assessments.[12][13][14][15][16]

Some research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime, while increasing the certainty of punishment does have a deterrent effect.[17] "Clearly, enhancing the severity of punishment will have little impact on people who do not believe they will be apprehended for their actions." Similarly, enhancing the certainty of punishment will have little impact on people who do not believe that the sanctions to be imposed will be severe."


Deterrence (penology) - Wikipedia
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#23
I am reading Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring, and find the American practices appalling as well.
Don't know the book, will look it up

Had a quick look.

Been there and left in despair.

Began awareness in about 1980,, initially in a broader sense of global warming .Wasn't my prescience, but the obsession of a friend I thought paranoid at the time. Turns out, if anything, he understated the issue. One thing I remember from 1980-ish; he showed me a study which claimed we MUST reduce carbon emissions RIGHT NOW by 20% (like 30 years ago) That if we did not, that in about twenty years, it wouldn't matter what we did, it would be too late.

With what I'm seeing in climate change around the world, I think the guy may have been right. I do all the things I can; minimise my water use, reduce use of plastics, recycle whatever I can. last year installed a 5 kw solar power system. All these things make my feel as if I'm doing something, but I'm not making a difference.

However, one good thing: My state, South Australia has the highest take up rate of solar energy in the world, with 25% of households having already installed solar power.

These days I hope I'm dead before climate change become seriously inconvenient or life threatening.

America is not the worst .Australia can't point any fingers.

The worts pollution I've ever seen was in Athens. However,, from what I can tell ,the pollution in countries like China and India doesn't bear thinking about. --and what gives us the moral authority to demand developing countries reduce their use of fossil fuels?
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,281
Brassicaland
#24
@VHS

"Holding a relatively lower age for criminal responsibility is a better deterrence; even if it does not deter 100%, it is still an effective move. " '

Pretty sure the claim that punishment as a deterrent in crime has not yet been established as a general principle., remaining strongly contested. I have a sneaking suspicion that attitudes may reflect ideological ideals as well as political expediency and vested interests.

My opinion is that I would expect deterrent be less effective on juveniles because by definition they are less mature, and less aware of the consequences of their actions. This would include an unrealistic attitude towards being apprehended as well as underestimating the severity of punishment. To be fair, I understand this is also common with a lot of so-called adult criminals.

I think the jury's still out on this issue..

*******************************************************************************************************

From Wikipedia, but there's a truckload of information available online.

"Deterrence is the use of punishment as a threat which is considered as a means to prevent people from offending or to reduce the probability and/or level of offending.

The concept of deterrence has two key assumptions: the first is that specific punishments imposed on offenders could prevent the offender from committing further crimes; the second is that fear of punishment could prevent others from committing similar crimes.[1]

Deterrence is often contrasted with retributivism, which holds that punishment is a necessary consequence of a crime which the offender deserves and its severity should be calculated based on the gravity of the wrong done. Rehabilitation is another different approach which attempts to reform the offender rather than using punishment."


"Measuring and estimating the effects of criminal sanction on subsequent criminal behaviour is the historic and conceptual core of criminology.[11] Despite numerous studies using a variety of data sources, sanctions, crime types, statistical methods and theoretical approaches, there remains little agreement in the scientific literature about whether, how, under what circumstances, to what extent, for which crimes, at what cost, for which individuals, and perhaps most importantly, in which direction do various aspects of contemporary criminal sanctions affect subsequent criminal behaviour. There are extensive reviews of this literature with somewhat conflicting assessments.[12][13][14][15][16]

Some research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime, while increasing the certainty of punishment does have a deterrent effect.[17] "Clearly, enhancing the severity of punishment will have little impact on people who do not believe they will be apprehended for their actions." Similarly, enhancing the certainty of punishment will have little impact on people who do not believe that the sanctions to be imposed will be severe."


Deterrence (penology) - Wikipedia
Prevention is better than rehabilitation; then, this go to parenting skills, school education, community programs, and more.
What should we do about teenagers in the first place?
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#25
Prevention is better than rehabilitation; then, this go to parenting skills, school education, community programs, and more.
What should we do about teenagers in the first place?

Bloody good question.

If I knew the answer I'd be very rich indeed. I'm not sure there is a viable solution.,

Me, I don't like children ,young ones are bad enough, but teens are bloody horrible; they tend to be more opinionated and self absorbed than me-:halo:---------and Yes, I have long memory. I remember what a little turd I was .Unfortunately, young dickheads tend to become old dickheads.

I did all I could reasonably do; I did not inflict little duplicates of myself on the world. No teenagers, no problem :kiss:


Of course, there is another of looking at it; change some of the definitions / laws :Eg it is my understanding that something like 25% of the US prison population are in prison due to none violent drug offences. AND a disproportionate number are African Americans.

Legalise marijuana, heroin and cocaine .Licence and tax production.EG Canada has just legalised marijuana. Marijuana and heroin were legal in most countries until about the 1920's
 
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VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,281
Brassicaland
#26
Don't know the book, will look it up

Had a quick look.

Been there and left in despair.

Began awareness in about 1980,, initially in a broader sense of global warming .Wasn't my prescience, but the obsession of a friend I thought paranoid at the time. Turns out, if anything, he understated the issue. One thing I remember from 1980-ish; he showed me a study which claimed we MUST reduce carbon emissions RIGHT NOW by 20% (like 30 years ago) That if we did not, that in about twenty years, it wouldn't matter what we did, it would be too late.

With what I'm seeing in climate change around the world, I think the guy may have been right. I do all the things I can; minimise my water use, reduce use of plastics, recycle whatever I can. last year installed a 5 kw solar power system. All these things make my feel as if I'm doing something, but I'm not making a difference.

However, one good thing: My state, South Australia has the highest take up rate of solar energy in the world, with 25% of households having already installed solar power.

These days I hope I'm dead before climate change become seriously inconvenient or life threatening.

America is not the worst .Australia can't point any fingers.

The worts pollution I've ever seen was in Athens. However,, from what I can tell ,the pollution in countries like China and India doesn't bear thinking about. --and what gives us the moral authority to demand developing countries reduce their use of fossil fuels?
I was silly enough trying to post using a tablet; it is very inconvenient.
Silent Spring is a 1962 book about the indiscriminate uses of pesticides and herbicides and the ecological disasters at that time.
In Liu Cixin's novel of The Three-Body Problem (三体), the protagonist read the book and became cynical of humans; she believes that humans cannot save itself and turns to extraterrestrial intelligence.
Have you heard of Sapiens: A Brief History? Unfortunately, illusions about previously pristine humanity has always existed.
The fact is: Humans have never been pristine; we have the potentials to be better, though.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#27
I was silly enough trying to post using a tablet; it is very inconvenient.
Silent Spring is a 1962 book about the indiscriminate uses of pesticides and herbicides and the ecological disasters at that time.
In Liu Cixin's novel of The Three-Body Problem (三体), the protagonist read the book and became cynical of humans; she believes that humans cannot save itself and turns to extraterrestrial intelligence.
Have you heard of Sapiens: A Brief History? Unfortunately, illusions about previously pristine humanity has always existed.
The fact is: Humans have never been pristine; we have the potentials to be better, though.

, Part of my self description is 'misanthrope'. I have a poor opinion of homo sapiens sapiens as a species, but like a few individuals

Imo human beings are just primates with delusions of grandeur

.Animals tend to increase their population when there are plenty of resources. They continue over breeding until the resources ,run out.then a lot of them die.

That is what we are doing right now, with the added pleasure of busily making the planet uninhabitable for ourselves.

It's not the planet which needs saving, it's not going anywhere, we are.

Will we improve as a species? Who can say? I accept evolution as proved, so I guess we should continue to evolve, However, there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the question. Some scientists argue we will not continue to evolve. So I don't know .The issue is of academic interest only to me..
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#28
Most countries (including the PRC) have some concept of "legal infancy".This is an age before which a person is not considered sufficiently mature to make certain decisions. It is explicitly recognised that teenagers brains are not fully matured . Among other things, this means it is accepted that teens are not fully aware of the consequences of their actions.

In Australia , people under18 years may not buy alcohol, vote, gamble, ,get married (without parental approval) or enter into a legal contract. PLUS they are tried as children, in the youth court, FOR ANY OFFENCE WHATSOEVER committed before they are 18.

I've been aware for some time that at least some states in the US regularly judge teens as adults, and sentences them as adults, up to and including life without parole and the death penalty.

I've had a look at various cases as a I've had the opportunity. What I've seen suggests very strongly that was is happening is judicial revenge on especially heinous crimes, without considering why there is a concept of legal infancy in the first place. I guess one could argue that some of the US Bible belt states especially are socially pretty primitive with a strong culture of vengeance.. Whilst arguably true, I think that argument is simplistic.-I don't know how true this next bit is ,as it comes from TV programs; I have the impression that states such as NewYork and California both judge some teens as adults

I would really like some one to rationally explain this practice to me, because I truly don't understand. It seems unjust and barbaric to in principle and in practice.
The Supreme Court struck down death penalty or life without parole sentences for minors.

If a minor commits an adult crime like first degree murder, should they only be sentenced to a juvenile detention center until they were an adult? Is it fair that because they were only 17 years 11 months old, they only go to reform school until they become an adult, while their buddy who was just a month older gets a life sentence for the same murder? I am sorry, even a 16 year old knows murder is wrong, and if they don't think murder is wrong at 16, what makes you think I hey will suddenly think it wrong when they tu n 18 or 21?
 
Oct 2015
889
India
#29
@Chlodio

As a non American, I have long considered the US political system to be arguably the most corrupt in the developed word.
All political systems are corrupt. Just recall China had shot a few corrupt officials some years back. And majority of British MPs - in that Mother of Democracy - were found to be claiming their personal expenses from the government funds. Most comical situation was in Pakistan. Ms Benazir Bhuttto was Prime Minister of Pakistan and in her tenure her husband was colloquially named "Mister Ten Percent." Mr Nawaz Sharif, the ex PM of Pakistan has just been sent to jail for seven years. Both were good - Ms Bhutto & Mr Sharif - but political system's need for corruption did them in.

In India, fighting an election is a costly affair. The process has to be funded from non-personal sources. Because hardly anyone has the required money to spare and even if few have then they are unwilling to gamble hard-earned (assumption) wealth. Donations are said to made under the carpet and funds are said to be generated thru unaccounted money. This is a rather non-transparent system of election funding. Attempts are on to rectify the problem and current government is good, but house-cleaning & digging skeletons is time consuming as well as unpleasant.

On the other hand, in US, I think, the difference is that giving / taking political contributions thru lobbyists has been made tax-transparent and an art-form. If you give me a choice, I would jump for it to be implemented in my country as it reduced other types of corruption.

Just because one does not see corruption in some countries (Australia or Europe) does not mean it does not exists or is less prevalent than where it is open. It is easy to criticize, but the question is what alternatives exists and/or how the existing practice can be improved.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#30
Well ,yes,I think I gave some examples of egregious corruption in Australia. We've also had systemic corruption by gerrymander. In my own state we had the same premiere for 29 years. Queensland had a similar set up, with the added bonus of a notoriously corrupt Premiere.

I understand that ONE BILLION dollars was spent on the last US presidential election . I think that's obscene . Here , I think, but am not certain, that political donations must be disclosed. There have been moves her for many years to limit the amount candidates may spend on their election. There have also been calls for elections to be financed by government, with a set amount. for each candidate. I think that's a great idea, then it would be harder to 'buy' an election

. The corruption of the lobbying system is common here too,. especially from the mining sector. I would like to see political donations by a business or company banned...

There may be a certain apparent transparency in the US lobbying system, but it seems to me that it remains deeply corrupt. It's till very obviously a matter of payment (often in millions) with implicit expectation of political favours to come. But, an outsider, I may be wrong.

I read the Huff post India a few times each week. It regularly writes about some poor Dalit man who has been lynched/killed by a mob for such serious crimes as daring to grow a moustache or riding a horse to his own wedding. (this is obviously in rural villages, not the city)

Can't say I understand Indian politics,.as reported. As tends to be the case in other poor countries**, I would expect political corruption (and violence?) the be quite serious.


** OF COURSE India is growing massively, ,especially economically.I understand that India now has a middle class of around 200 million. THAT is impressive .However, dire poverty seems to still exists to a heart breaking level .

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OT. Be interested in your opinion of Mother Theresa. I saw her interviewed on TV, and she came across as a hateful old bitch. That was years ago. Since then I have read some horrible things about her treatment of the sick and dying in her facility. Plus the claim that only a tiny percentage of money donated is used for the sick and the poor. It's interesting, that calls to have her canonised by the church seem to have been quietly dropped